Transcript
Intro: Welcome to A Bunch of Therapists, the podcast that goes behind the doors of the therapy room. Our guests will be sharing their experiences of counselling and psychotherapy and all the lessons they’ve learned on the journey through life. This episode is hosted by Dipti Solanki and me, Michaela McCarthy. Our guest this week is Amy Launder.
Michaela McCarthy: Hi Amy.
Amy Launder: Hiya.
Michaela McCarthy: Tell us about, you know, what it was like for you when you started the journey of therapy.
Amy Launder: Yeah, so I actually knew that I wanted to be a therapist around 15. The idea just popped into my head and it kind of grew from there to the point where I changed schools for A-levels because my school didn’t do psychology and I kind of was, knew that that was the path that I wanted to go down. So became a qualified therapist by the time I was 27. Is that right?
Dipti Solanki: That’s really young isn’t it?
Amy Launder: Yeah. I think that’s right. Maybe even 24. I can’t remember now. Feels like a long time ago.
Michaela McCarthy: Just tell, what, why 15? What made you think, oh, this will be good?
Amy Launder: Do you know, I actually can’t tell, I wouldn’t be able to tell you what it was. Something just popped into my head and then we did the, that careers test at school and all of the, it aligned with that as well, but that came after it. The idea just popped into my head. I’ve never been to therapy. I didn’t know any therapists. I have no idea where it came from. It just came out of the blue.
Michaela McCarthy: Because it’s quite unusual.
Amy Launder: Yes. Yeah, because I know a lot of therapists go into therapy after being in therapy themselves. And it was like a second career, but I’d never had a career before this. And I’m quite jealous of therapists that have had a different career before this.
Michaela McCarthy: So how’s it going? Yeah, really good. I also always knew that I wanted to go into private practice, which I think is maybe a bit unusual too. So that started when I was 28, again, quite early, I think. So, yeah…
Michaela McCarthy: So tell me about your journey training.
Amy Launder: So I went the university route. So I went straight from school to university to do psychology. Then I did a graduate certificate in counselling and psychotherapy. And then I did a master’s in psychotherapy and counselling at the University of Leeds. And then I qualified and moved straight back down to London, pretty much the day after I qualified, and lost my whole network of therapists, which is why I came to The Awareness Centre.
Amy Launder: To kind of rebuild.
Michaela McCarthy: You turned up at our door.
Amy Launder: Turned up on your door, rebuilt my network of therapists. What did we say to you when you turned up? Well I got a placement, and I was qualified – I don’t know if that was allowed, but I got it and did my placement and then became a team leader and have never left.
Michaela McCarthy: So just for listeners and viewers that they… a placement… explain what a placement is for counselling and psychotherapy.
Amy Launder: So when you’re training as a therapist you need to do a certain amount of hours like junior doctors do hours in GP surgeries and things like that. So you do a placement whilst you’re training to get a certain number of hours to qualify. But then I did an extra one after I was qualified because I’d lost my network of therapists.
Dipti Solanki: I think that’s so important, isn’t it? That network and having other people in that world. So TAC kind of gave you that grounding. Tell me about all the different roles that you’ve kind of had while being here.
Amy Launder: Yeah, so my placement was in NHS Lambeth. So I saw four clients a week in a block on a Thursday afternoon, still remember, and then I had in-house supervision, group supervision at TAC. And then I just had my other, my regular job on the side, which was I was a barista, so I made lovely coffee. And then when I became a team leader, I was one of the team leaders for the NHS Lambeth. So that involved supporting the placement therapists and helping out with their admin, making sure they were doing all the things that they were meant to be doing. So after each session you have to write notes on the NHS system, you have to do risk assessments, you have to write letters to the GP, if that is something that needs to happen, and so as a team leader I was making sure all of that was being done properly as well.
Michaela McCarthy: So you got a job. So, you came to us knowing nobody in the therapy world, went on placement to get some more hours to meet people as well and then you got a job?
Amy Launder: Yeah, got a job.
Michaela McCarthy: And then you left the coffee shop?
Amy Launder: Left the coffee shop. So I yeah… I got a job, left the coffee shop and started building up my private practice at the same time because the team leader job was three days a week. And so that still involved seeing clients, but mainly it was the admin side of it and then looking after the other placement therapists. And then alongside that, I also started doing some marketing with you guys. So writing blog posts and I did Instagram for a little bit and newsletters and things like that. And then I now teach on the diploma at the end of the diploma about private practice and I am also now a course supervisor. So many, many jobs within The Awareness Centre. Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: So what was it like you turning up being a young therapist and then clients turn up and see a young therapist? how did you deal with that?
Amy Launder: I did struggle a little bit with some clients saying I was too young and wanting to be referred to another therapist. Yeah, so it did it did happen but it weirdly happened with people who were maybe 10 years older than me, mid 30s, late 30s. People older than that I think didn’t, weren’t bothered because most of the therapists were younger than them so then it didn’t really make too much difference.
And then I kind of had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about being young and looking young and so I think it affected my confidence and then that was more what clients were picking up on than my age. It was that I was anxious and I was maybe people-pleasing trying to get them to stay in the therapy and things like that and once I worked through that which just came with having more hours basically, more experience then the age thing wasn’t an issue anymore and I found when I first went into private practice as well I avoided putting my picture on my website and any directories because I was like ‘I’m not going to get clients because they’re going to see that I’m younger than them’ and then obviously they would come into the room and see me so the picture thing didn’t really make any difference in the end.
So when I embraced it I ended up getting clients who wanted a therapist who was closer to their age and they were younger clients and so it worked for me in the end but I had to get over myself basically at that point.
Michaela McCarthy: Now you’re over in the training school and you’re working with students who haven’t got a placement yet, well they’re starting to.
Amy Launder: They’re on the cusp of getting their first client.
Michaela McCarthy: So you’re starting with the going right back to the core.
Amy Launder: Yeah, yeah, which is really lovely seeing, I mean some of them have clients from other jobs, like one of them works in the prison under the chaplaincy service and someone does mentoring and things like that, so they have client experience, but a lot of them are going into the NHS placement with TAC and so having had that experience myself, I feel in a good place to be able to kind of talk them through how to use the forms and all of that as well as just the supporting them in their own anxieties and getting going on the placement.
Dipti Solanki: In terms of placement the other part of it so as a nearly qualified therapist when you go into placement. It’s quite an experience, isn’t it? And I know for me and a lot of my colleagues, anxiety really plays a big part in that. So maybe, could you reflect on, I know you’ve reflected on the anxiety of perhaps being one of the, well, people seeing you as being younger, even if you were a bit older. What other kinds of anxieties did you experience?
Amy Launder: I had the real anxiety of not knowing if I would be able to handle whatever was coming through the door, basically, which I know now being on the other side of it and supporting placement therapists and trainee therapists, that that’s not just me.
Dipti Solanki: Did you do that thing of trying to preempt what they might come with?
Amy Launder: Yeah.
Dipti Solanki: What you might do and help with?
Amy Launder: Yes, definitely. And luckily, I mean, most placements, you get a bit of information about the client before you first see them. So I would then research everything about whatever it was, was on the assessment. But then people are people and they’re not textbooks and so you can research everything but then…
Dipti Solanki: They come with something completely different
Amy Launder: They come with something different, their experience of whatever it is is completely different and so it’s just it’s about the human connection in the first instance and you know if it really is something that you’re not qualified to work with then you talk to whoever is supporting you on placement and they’ll either work with you to build up your skills and your confidence or the client will go to someone who is better suited for them and so I think that’s the big anxiety for most trainee therapists is who’s going to walk through the door and am I going to be the right therapist for them.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah because we have a lot of theory that we rely on, that we learn about and all these amazing skills. But actually when you’re in the room with your client, it’s just you and the client. And there’s nothing that you can quickly refer to. What I love about what you’ve shared is that, I think I should imagine most people imagine when you’re a therapist, it’s just one-to-one practice. But there are so many different avenues where you can diversify your skills and show up in different roles. And if you’re anything like I am, it’s so important because you can engage different parts of you, because we, you know, most people, when they come to this career, they’ve built up so many different skill sets from other areas of life. How does it feel to be able to kind of use different parts of yourself as a therapist?
Amy Launder: Yeah, I really love it. I think I’ll tell any therapist that will listen to not just do one-on-one therapy. I think you can really burn out that way and you can also, the relationship between you and your clients could get a bit muddied if that’s your only income stream as well. I think having multiple income streams makes the therapy really purely about the therapy, rather than thinking like ‘Oh god they’re gonna leave I’m not gonna be able to pay my bills if I don’t get another client in’. I kind of wanted to get rid of that completely so I have so many different revenue streams and some are really like once a year like teaching the workshop at the end of the diploma is once or twice a year but then renting out therapy rooms and doing course supervision.
Michaela McCarthy: We’ve got loads of diplomas now, so you’ll be here all the time!
Amy Launder: I’ll have a lot more! Big quids in! But having loads of different things and also not just doing the same thing every day like my week is every day is different during the week and every week is different from the last and I really love that.
Michaela McCarthy: But it’s interesting you say that because some therapists work throughout the week as therapists and don’t mix it up a bit. And that’s fine if they’re comfortable being in a room with other people for the week. I found for me that that’s kind of never really worked for me, I do hear about therapists saying that they get lonely because they don’t get to see other people.
Amy Launder: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it’s a weird thing because people who are not therapists will go, but you’re with people all day long, but it’s different because you’re there for them. It’s not a two-way relationship. So yeah, it can get lonely I think, particularly in private practice, if you don’t make the effort to keep networking and meeting other therapists and doing things outside of work as well, you can just be really lonely and burn out.
Dipti Solanki: It can be all-encompassing, can’t it? I think this conversation is really important to have because while therapy is a caring profession, it’s also you set up as a business.
Michaela McCarthy: If you work in private practice.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah and I think that sometimes it feels like there’s a bit of a conflict there but actually we have to be really clear that we’re setting up as individuals in business, also in care and professions, and how can we balance those two things. And for a long time I’ve not heard these conversations around, you know, how can I make this work as a business, how can I pay my bills without keeping, you know, staying awake all night and knowing that this is a sustainable business model as well. So, and I love that you help people kind of build that up for themselves.
Amy Launder: Yeah, yeah, I think it’s really important because there is, because it’s a caring profession, there is… there can be a lot of kind of shame about charging a certain amount of money or having a cancellation policy. And I’m actually seeing it less and less as the years go on, as I’m teaching these diploma workshops, which I really love, the therapists are more business minded, and maybe it’s the way that you guys are teaching at The Awareness Centre. But there’s a real… they’re able to kind of merge the therapy and the business side of themselves. Whereas for a long time for me, it felt like two different hats. Like you are the business person in one space and the therapist in the other space, but actually they cross over a lot, particularly if it’s like clients are constantly late with paying, like that is probably part of the therapy rather than that being a separate thing that you just email them about later.
Dipti Solanki: But in terms of your own practice, is there a certain niche, if you like, I don’t really like that word, but or do you see is there a theme of things that you deal with it within your practice?
Amy Launder: Yeah so my niche developed quite naturally over time but I see people who have emotionally immature parents, which is a niche but actually isn’t because every single client presents very differently who have had emotionally immature parents and so I worried when I went into a niche that it would just be the same thing over and over again But actually I’ve probably not had the same presenting issue twice within that niche
Michaela McCarthy: And can you tell me and the viewers and listeners What an emotionally immature parent or person actually is. What are their traits?
Amy Launder: Yeah, so the main underlying one is that the family revolves around them rather than around the children. So, and this, I mean, I’m talking about when they’re very young children and your things are meant to revolve around the children. It’s kind of meant to be top down in that in that way when they’re younger but for an emotionally immature parent the family revolves around them. So if mum or dad is upset everyone has to be quiet in the house no one else can be happy.
Michaela McCarthy: Walking on eggshells.
Amy Launder: Walking on eggshells is the main thing.
Michaela McCarthy: It happens a lot when you have a depressive mother or an alcoholic parent that their children become the little carers.
Amy Launder: Exactly.
Michaela McCarthy: And don’t have their own emotional maturity to be able to handle that and lots of issues can happen to them as they start to grow.
Amy Launder: Yeah, exactly. So then I end up seeing the clients who then they have issues in their own relationships, romantic relationships or friendships or workplace because they’re so used to catering to the parent and not looking after their own needs and so they’re over givers or they’re… yeah they don’t have the proper boundaries in place to protect.
Michaela McCarthy: And do you work with people who are emotionally immature and are questioning what’s going on in their life?
Amy Launder: I haven’t really because I think mainly they don’t think there’s anything wrong with them so they don’t come to therapy. What I do see is clients questioning if they are emotionally immature or narcissistic because they’ve been always told by the parent that they are selfish and you know if they’re just saying what they need, that’s seen as selfish and so they then grow up thinking that they are selfish or emotionally immature themselves, or even narcissistic themselves, and so there’s and there’s a lot of needing to normalise and validate what went on was not normal for them so I have a lot of clients kind of explaining really kind of horrific situations and then going ‘But was it that bad?’, ‘Yeah it was it was that bad!’. And so it’s there’s a lot of needing to validate because they were invalidated a lot.
Michaela McCarthy: But it’s like you know having people coming in and kind of questioning because they’re reading a lot of stuff on socials or whatever, is that I wonder whether it’s a positive sometimes but it can become a bit of a hindrance because going into therapy knowing that there’s something wrong with you as a person, you don’t know what you’re going into, you know I wonder whether that can not be better but different
Amy Launder: Hmm, there is, yeah, sometimes people coming in thinking that they are a certain attachment style or, and just almost treating it like that’s a given and there’s no room to discuss it or to kind of break it down or see if that even is the case. They’ve just read, okay, I’m anxiously attached. And then they kind of give it to me as if that that’s just the way I am.
Michaela McCarthy: That’s so different from when I started out because actually I went into therapy because a friend of mine in Hampstead said to me, I said, ‘Oh my life’s not quite great anyway’ and at that point in my life she said, ‘Oh why don’t you go into therapy?’ So I said, well, why not? I don’t know anyone that’s actually been in therapy in my circle. I thought I’ve got nothing to lose. So I went in blind. I had no idea what to expect. I didn’t, no one had said anything. I knew I had issues, but I went in with one issue. And then I come out with 25 issues. But I didn’t have, I had part of a language but not the language that I think people have today. You can just speak to people that haven’t been in therapy but they have a language.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah, the language is so important because it gives you access to that inner world that most people don’t know how to make sense of. It helps people make sense of themselves, I think. We’ve got listeners who are hopefully listening to this thinking, that makes sense. I kind of connect to that. Not really sure about that. What do you think are the biggest things that people can recognise in themselves that might be signs that therapy may help them, especially in terms of emotional immaturity, parents, other key figures in their life.
Amy Launder: If they are questioning was it that bad, am I being overdramatic, am I being, am I too sensitive, all of these kind of gaslighty type terms, it’s worth going to therapy even just to explore whether it was that bad.
Dipti Solanki: I’m just going to stop you there for a minute, so for our listeners, I know we all use that term gaslighting.
Michaela McCarthy: I don’t!
Dipti Solanki: Everyone apart from Michaela! What does gaslighting mean?
Amy Launder: So it actually comes from a play called Gaslight or Gaslit, which was I haven’t actually seen it I need to see it but it was essentially someone was trying once sneaking around in the flat above where he lived with his wife and turning on the lights up there which turned down the gas lights in their apartment, because there was only so much gas to go around and he was she was saying ‘I think there’s someone breaking in I think there’s something going on upstairs’ and he was saying ‘No, no, no you’re imagining it’, so that’s where the term comes from.
Michaela McCarthy: That is a gaslighting term.
Dipti Solanki: I did not know that. Thank you.
Michaela McCarthy: When people say like you imagine it there’s many terms there’s I’ve seen a whole list.
Amy Launder: Really?
Dipti Solanki: I didn’t know the provenance of that term, I knew what people meant by gaslighting.
Amy Launder: I think it really helps to make it clear when you know exactly where it’s come from. Like there’s another term called flying monkeys in the narcissistic world which comes from The Wizard of Oz, which was the wicked witch never actually went out and did her own dirty work, she sent out the flying monkeys. So if and when you cut off a narcissistic person from your life, they will send out their friends, their siblings, their partner, whoever to your house for example, or through messages to say, ‘Oh you know they really miss you, they need you’ and all this stuff. So, it’s not them doing the dirty work, it’s their flying monkeys. So that’s where that comes from as well.
Dipti Solanki: Thanks for carrying that on.
Michaela McCarthy: When someone’s going into therapy and they’re going on a journey and they’re questioning and they’re curious and everything, and we use that word a lot because I think we need to be curious, I know that some younger people will go into therapy for a few sessions, okay? I’m not saying that that’s wrong, I’m not saying it’s right, but I do say to people, you know, it’s probably best to go into therapy a bit longer than a few sessions, you know? And I sometimes say it’s a bit like going to the gym for a few sessions with personal trainer, don’t work. I’ve tried it, have you tried it?
Dipti Solanki: Yes.
Michaela McCarthy: You tried it?
Amy Launder: Yes.
Michaela McCarthy: You’ve tried it? I think most of us have. You’ve really got to keep at it. You’ve got to keep going and keep at it. You know, I do admire people that really are dedicated.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah. I think on that point, it’s a really important point because for most people, they will see therapy as something you go to when you’re at crisis point, but actually the power of therapy when you get beyond those crises and then you really start to open up this whole new inner world and the self-development I mean what do you think about that Amy?
Amy Launder: Yeah I think it’s so important and actually when I’m now working with trainee therapists this is kind of because you have to go to therapy when you’re training this is a lot of the time the first time that people are going without there being a crisis and they’re realising ‘Oh wow I can actually go a lot deeper here’ it’s not just getting back up to being okay and managing and then I leave therapy I’ve got to keep going so I need to find more things to talk about and the self-exploration goes a lot deeper and so it becoming more of a maintenance thing even when you’re not a trainee or not a therapist, just dipping in and out of therapy or going for longer periods of time but not waiting until crisis point.
Dipti Solanki: On another point as well though, that self-exploration I think is just so empowering and powerful but for some people who come from the viewpoint of, well, isn’t that then just navel gazing? So that self-exploration, how does that change the way that you show up in the world? I think that’s a really important point to focus on. What’s your take on that?
Amy Launder: Yeah, so I think, well, yeah, there are people, people in my life who have not been to therapy who see other people who have been in therapy for a long time and go oh they you know the way they speak is because they’ve been in therapy and so some people find it quite annoying but actually it like you know ‘Oh they can’t take a joke’ and actually it’s they’re just standing up for themselves because they’ve been in therapy to say I don’t find that funny that kind of thing.
Dipti Solanki: So, develop their own voice.
Amy Launder: Yes, exactly. And so I think it can be navel gazing, but if you’re using it in the real world, then there’s benefits to everyone around you as well.
Dipti Solanki: What kind of benefits?
Amy Launder: So, I mean, if you’re a parent, there’s benefits to your own children. If you’re in therapy and kind of dealing with your own stuff, so that you’re, I’m gonna use the word trigger, so that your children don’t trigger things in you.
Michaela McCarthy: Oh, not that word!
Amy Launder: I know I’m using it in a way because I know we don’t like it, but you can only be triggered if there’s something there to trigger. And so if you’re going to therapy, then I mean, we all get annoyed by our own children sometimes. I’m at the stage of having a two year old, and so there’s a lot of things that are very frustrating, but going to therapy so that I understand ‘OK, I’m frustrated because of this’ rather than shouting is beneficial to my child and to, you know, any parent who has a child. But also to be able to have a healthy relationship with your own parents or your friends or co-workers or whoever and also to be able to see your family who are potentially emotionally immature or even narcissistic, to keep a relationship but also protect yourself is really important.
Michaela McCarthy: I mean I really enjoy the community of therapy. I’ve kind of grown up with it. But from a… I didn’t go into it until I was 30-ish. But I was, you know, I sort of, well I fell into it really from someone saying ‘Look you, know you, give it a go’.
Amy Launder: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And actually it’s been the best thing that I’ve ever done in my entire life. Because the more I get to know myself the better I’m a person with other people.
Amy Launder: Yeah. And I love going to see different therapists as well like for significant periods of time each but you get something different from every different therapist as well because people bring their own experiences. I think you mentioned earlier like people, therapists forget who they were before becoming therapists and we all have a whole lifetime of experiences and different careers that people have had and so your experience of one therapist will be different with another therapist and I think that’s really lovely as well.
Michaela McCarthy: Not changing them every week.
Amy Launder: No, that’s why it’s significant periods of time but over time having different therapists I think is really helpful.
Michaela McCarthy: So if you were to have a message out there to the listeners and viewers what would you say to them? If you are to have a message out there to the listeners and viewers, what would you say to them?
Amy Launder: If you are questioning whether there is something, go and explore it. Even if it’s something, something terrible has happened or something you just feel a bit uncomfortable about or something you’re not sure about, go and find a therapist and talk to them. And also, if you don’t have a good first experience of therapy, don’t give up.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah, that’s key. Thank you for coming in today.
Outro: You’ve been listening to a bunch of therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy and Dipti Solanki. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review and don’t forget to follow us on our socials to keep up to date with all of our news. Thank you so much and until next time.