Transcript
Intro
Welcome to A Bunch of Therapists, the podcast that goes behind the doors of the therapy room. Our guests will be sharing their experiences of counselling and psychotherapy, and all the lessons they’ve learned on the journey through life. This episode is hosted by Dipti Solanki and me, Michaela McCarthy. Our guest this week is Sam Hughes.
Dipti Solanki
Welcome to the podcast, Sam. Thanks. We’d love to know a little bit about your journey into therapy.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, so I went to art college in my early 20s and I loved art and I loved doing art, but I struggled with it really because I just was very unconfident and I would crumble really if I had any criticism at college. And so it really, it kind of hampered my time at college because I, you know, a lot of the time I was suffering, even though I loved what I was doing, I was finding it hard to see that what I was doing was any good. And I was overly reliant on good feedback from tutors. So it was hard, it was a struggle.
Dipti Solanki
Yeah, so really looking for a lot of external validation and not sure of, what was it that you weren’t sure of.
Sam Hughes
I just don’t think I had a sort of internal sense of worth, really. And I don’t think I knew that at the time, but I could see that other people didn’t struggle as much with that, that other people were more confident or seemed to have something a bit more solid inside them. I felt very fragile, you know, if things went badly in the external world, then I would crumble inside.
Dipti Solanki
Okay, so it was seeing how other people were responding to the same experiences you were having. Yeah. That made you realise what?
Sam Hughes
Other people seem more robust and didn’t, you know, weren’t annihilated by the same things I was. I think other people looked like they felt better.
Michaela McCarthy
Was that the same for you when you were at school or did it just happen when you went to art college?
Sam Hughes
It was a little bit at school, but not so much. I think it was because art college was the first place I was at where I really cared about it. School I could brush things off because I actually was kind of, I did really well in art at school and that was the only thing I cared about. And I got a lot of positive feedback at school. The rest of the stuff, if I didn’t do well in other subjects, I wasn’t that bothered. But art school was the first point where everything mattered.
Dipti Solanki
There was a lot riding on it.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah, and it was like my identity. And suddenly, you know, if things went badly or I had a bad crit, you know, or something, then I’d just be crushed, really crushed, because this was my love, you know, and I, yeah. But then I could see other people didn’t respond in the same way. They were stronger somehow, had a bit more faith in themselves.
Michaela McCarthy
When you went to art school, what was your ambition? Did you have one?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, I wanted to be a designer. I was a textile designer, so design prints for fabrics. Yeah, which I did. I did, and I did that for 20 years. But that continued into working life because you go and show fashion companies your designs and sell them pieces of work. And I would be, it would be great if it went well but if it didn’t go well then I’d be really upset.
Michaela McCarthy
So what did you do with when you went home at the end of school, art school or a job, what would you do?
Sam Hughes
I think I’d just be really unhappy, you know, if things had gone badly. I didn’t really have any resources to sort of build myself up again or to feel good again. I just, I think I would sort of globalise, you know, like if the day had gone badly, I was rubbish, that meant I was rubbish at everything, that meant I might as well give this up. Why was I even doing this? Why had I taken this road? I should have known this was going to happen, you know.
Michaela McCarthy
So you didn’t really need anyone to criticise you, you’d done it all by yourself really well.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, sometimes, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
So how did you get into therapy, what happened? Because, you know, if I reflect back when I went into therapy, I imagine we’re kind of similar age, kind of. There was no, it was word of mouth, There was no like, oh social media or websites or anything. It was just, and if you didn’t know anyone that was in therapy, it was a whole new kind of world. So how did you knock on the door?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, I had a friend who was a bit of a mess. He’d been seeing a therapist and he asked his therapist if I could come and have a chat with her and so I went to see her and she said yeah why don’t you come and see me and then it transpired that actually she was a Jungian analyst which I didn’t know what that was I had no idea I don’t think I even knew she was a Jungian analyst till about three years later.
Dipti Solanki
So for our listeners and viewers, what is a Jungian analyst? And how is that different to a more traditional type of therapist you’d go to see?
Sam Hughes
So a psychoanalyst is, you know, they do therapy in that sort of traditional way, where you lie on a couch and the therapist sits behind you. And yeah, it’s about sort of tapping into unconscious feelings.
Dipti Solanki
Okay. So talk to us about when you went into this therapy session.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And she said, oh, would you like to lie on the couch and I was like what?
Michaela McCarthy
But I think it’s sometimes I mean I’ve mentioned this before that when you go into an environment that it’s really new and you think there’s a lot of shit going on I need to do something. Yeah. And when you don’t know what you’ve got to do, you just think, I’ll give it a go. I mean, that’s what I did. Because no one can really tell you.
Sam Hughes
No. I was a bit wary, kind of thought.
Michaela McCarthy
Lying on the couch?
Sam Hughes
What is this weird sorcery?
Dipti Solanki
It’s quite a vulnerable position to put yourself in.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah it is. Yeah. But yeah, so I did sort of say, okay then, yeah, what we don’t, we’re not gonna sit face to face then. And she said, because the original chat we’d had, we were face to face. And she said, well, this is how I work really. So if you wouldn’t mind giving it a go. And I said, yeah, all right then. And then actually I came to love it.
Dipti Solanki
Did you?
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Dipti Solanki What did you love about it?
Sam Hughes
Because it really, you know, not having to look at someone, not having to respond to someone’s facial expressions. You’re just two voices, two thoughts in the room, you know, and you can just, you really can drift and tap into things that you wouldn’t normally, I don’t, you know, access necessarily.
Dipti Solanki
I imagine it’s less confronting than seeing someone and doing it face to face as well.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it could be confronting at times, the therapy, but it was very much about, I guess it’s more about your thoughts and about the therapist’s thoughts and about the interchange between those two things. So and it just allows you like if you want to be quiet you don’t worry about it. I would be quiet a lot you know because I would find it hard to kind of settle into the session and then yeah and she would wait and wait and wait for me to start talking and then after a bit she might go, mm-hmm, or something like that, you know, to try and, I was quite shy about talking about myself, so yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
But I mean, lying there, you tell me, you’re lying there with yourself, you know, especially if the analyst is quiet.
Sam Hughes
Yes.
Michaela McCarthy
And waiting, you know, it’s like, it’s just you. You might hear the breathing in the room, but if you think about all your senses, because the sense that you, it will be the listening to your analyst a bit more. You don’t visually see, you know, that even though you’re in the room, and I do love myself being in the room with people. And do you think that you got in touch with yourself in a deeper way through that experience?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, because if you’re lying there and the other person’s not saying anything yet, you’re going to be the first one to speak. And you don’t have the pressure of looking at each other, it’s not a conversation in the same way. Then you can just have the luxury of drifting for a bit and just think, well, how do I really feel right here, right now?
Dipti Solanki
And doing that processing.
Sam Hughes
What’s been going on for me this week and, you know, how have I been feeling really, really, you know, rather than what you would, might present in a conversation. Yeah, and so really it frees you up to say whatever you want to say.
Dipti Solanki
What did you find that therapy helped you with in a more general way?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, slowly, slowly, you know, we kind of unpicked the roots of me not having much confidence in myself, not having much self-worth or self-esteem. And it just slowly, slowly shifted over the time. Just being with someone else who’s kind of on your side, wants the best for you, is able to help you understand that you’re not, what you feel like isn’t necessarily what you are, it’s just the sum of your experiences. And that actually, you know, there are other ways to see yourself. And that it might not be as bad as you think.
Michaela McCarthy
And was your going into therapy, what were your thoughts when you first went in? Did you think, right, I’ll do so many sessions and then do it, or did you just go in and not know?
Sam Hughes
I don’t think I had a clue. Yeah, yeah. I think I just thought…
Michaela McCarthy
I can relate to that. I never even thought about, oh, how do I do a year? Or do I do six months? I just kept going.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, me too.
Michaela McCarthy
Just kept going and just thought, well, something will happen.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And then just slowly over time, I started…
Michaela McCarthy
It’s subtle, isn’t it? It’s just a… Really subtle. And then you just start to notice yourself.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And I think, you know, after a while, you know, I would come in with all my worries and my fears and my woes and my feelings about myself and they would initially kind of be mended by the therapist, you know, that they would be a therapist would kind of take them from me and mend them a little bit and give them back. But then after a while, I would be coming in, having sort of done that already and more telling her, oh, this happened, and initially I felt like this, but then I thought about what we talked about and I thought about a different way of looking at it. And so I think over time, it drifted into me doing the work, you know, to the point eventually where I thought, I’m actually doing this now. And I’m not even getting the horrible feelings in the first place quite often. I’m sort of going straight to the more reparative stuff that we’ve talked about.
Dipti Solanki
You’re in the driving seat again.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, I think that kind of therapy requires a sort of letting go of control in a way. Yeah. Those can be quite challenging.
Michaela McCarthy
You just mentioned reparative and for viewers and listeners out there, you know, what is that?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, I guess it’s experiencing a reparative relationship. So…
Michaela McCarthy
Like a re-parenting.
Sam Hughes
A little bit, yeah. Yeah, like having a, you know, kind, loving, compassionate person with you, alongside you while you absorb that really. And it begins to become a part of yourself. So you begin to feel kind, compassionate, caring about yourself where there may have been an absence of that before.
Dipti Solanki
I think so many of us carry a very, very strong inner critic. Yeah. You know, and I think so many people listening and watching this will be able to kind of resonate with that. And what I’m hearing from you is that you were able to kind of quieten that part of you down and let another side kind of emerge. Sam Hughes Yeah, exactly that. You know, the critical part that used to sort of come, you know, come down on you whenever anything bad happened or anything didn’t work or went wrong or relationships weren’t working. That gradually faded and then and there was a more kind, compassionate voice in my head instead, you know, that had been created in the sessions really.
Michaela McCarthy
With this therapist how long did you stay with her?
Sam Hughes
Several years yeah yeah it was a long process.
Michaela McCarthy
Because you know some people you know we you know we do have quite a lot of short-term therapy and I’m not knocking it because I think it gets you in and some people might have an issue that they want to work on but I think when it’s something more deep-rooted it does take a long time because it is a process. And I think people really do need to understand that, that it can take years. And then you sort of wake up one day and you think, well.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah. I think if you’re looking for sort of core change, you know, in how you feel about yourself, I think that needs time.
Dipti Solanki
Yeah.
Sam Hughes
Because you have to, you bring yourself as you are, you know, and that has to kind of sit in the therapy for a while, and you have to kind of understand, you know, where that’s come from, how you relate to other people, how you see yourself. And then, you know then change sort of starts to be generated in the therapy. But then there’s a big phase of sort of you take these new thoughts out there into your real world. And there’s lots of shifting that goes on there because you question the way you react to things. It needs time to sort of settle in a different way of seeing yourself, a different way of approaching relationships. You might have friendships that change, some that end, you know, because they’re based on, you know, how you have been. You’re wanting to be something a little bit different.
Michaela McCarthy
That can be difficult.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, you’re changing.
Michaela McCarthy
You now, especially when you go down a journey of being in therapy and longer term therapy. And then even changing as a therapist. It’s not that you lose all friends, but you change and they remember you the way you were before. And it’s not that you were bad, it’s just that you were different.
Dipti Solanki
And they’re used to a certain dynamic with you.
Michaela McCarthy
Yeah and it’s difficult to sort of be that way because you’re not that way anymore. Yeah. You can reminisce and sort of go and think but you know how long do you need to do that you know.
Sam Hughes
Yeah because I think I was a great listener before I went to therapy you know I would give other people a lot of time. I think I’d want to be of service to people in a way, so that they gave the friendship with me extra value. And I think I took my foot off the pedal on that and just wasn’t necessarily wanting to be that for everybody anymore. And some friendships, some friendships are good and people, they don’t mind that you’re changing and they’re willing to kind of see you in a new way. Other friendships, they want what they had and you might not be offering the same things anymore. So I think, you know, some friendships of mine shifted and others, some sort of faded away. Others thrived on me being different.
Michaela McCarthy
Right. And so when did you just think about training as a therapist?
Sam Hughes
I think by the time I got to the end of my therapy, I was, actually no it was, I probably was still in therapy, but I just got more and more interested in how knowledge is power. And I mean, power is not quite the right word, but knowledge is so of how we work as human beings, how we understand ourselves, how we understand how we relate to others, is so empowering and beneficial that I just thought I wanna know more about this. So I enrolled for a sort of introductory course. I thought, I just started to cross my mind. I was thinking, I wonder if I could actually do this, maybe. For having had this long experience, maybe I could do this too. And then I did this first course, loved it and then I just kept going. So there was no grand plan, I just thought I’m really enjoying learning the theories behind what I’ve been doing here.
Michaela McCarthy
And that can happen to quite a lot of people that go into therapy.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
And not for everyone, but I think for some that are quite curious and think, gosh, you know, I think I could be with people.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
In the room.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And having been a, very much a listener in friendships, I thought I could kind of utilise that in a way.
Michaela McCarthy
Yeah, yeah.
Sam Hughes
You know, I do know how to listen. So, you know, so yeah. Yeah, and it just gradually became a more solid idea in my mind and then eventually did a diploma. Then I worked in, I did a year placement in Pentonville prison.
Dipti Solanki
Talk to us about that.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, that was wild. Yeah, working with male inmates at Pentonville. Yeah, so I did a year there. We’d go in on a, it ran on a Saturday, and we’d be in all, you had to go, because it was such a long check-in. You’d go in for the whole day. And then we worked, there was a group of us that worked with male inmates whoever wanted to volunteer for the service and yeah you’d have I think it was about 12 sessions but yeah working with murderers, housebreakers, you know all sorts really, gang members.
Michaela McCarthy
What was it like for you to get into their life? Because when you get into a life of someone who’s been involved in criminal activity or even murder, you hear the full picture of their life. Not just what they did.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
And they’re very different in the room.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. On the whole, I thought they were lovely people and that they’d all had really difficult lives. You know, really difficult family situations, really difficult circumstances. And yeah, and some of them were trying to find another way, you know. And yeah, it was very rewarding work actually. It was lovely.
Michaela McCarthy
But sometimes, you know, wanting to have a life, a different life, is difficult when you’ve normalised a life that you’ve grown up in and you don’t know any different. And then you’re in, you know, you’re in prison and you’re with many other people and then that becomes quite normalised and then you get released and then you go back to what you did before.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, some people had done things that were not, you know, were… They weren’t going to have a life outside of prison.
Michaela McCarthy
Yeah, so they were there for a long time. Forever.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And that was a lot of, you know, sitting with the sadness of it all, really, you know, sitting with the sadness of it all really, you know. And then other people, you know, were going to be released and, you know, and the work was a lot around how they were going to try and make a life, you know, that wouldn’t mean that they ended up back in prison. Some, one or two, would go out, do something to get themselves back in prison.
Dipti Solanki
There are some prisoners, as you say, that won’t really have much of a release or won’t be released. And they are inevitably gonna be sitting with so many different emotions. Maybe, for example, a sadness and heartbreak at where their life is. How do you work with people to get them to accept and be with whatever difficult emotions they’re sitting with?
Sam Hughes
I think it’s about meaning. How do we find some sense of meaning in that person’s life and how does that person find meaning going forward.
Dipti Solanki
And especially with a problem that can’t be fixed.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, because in a way, you know, your circumstances are what they are, but who do you want to be in those circumstances?
Dipti Solanki
Yeah, I mean, what comes to mind when you say that is, I mean, it is a type of loss, it’s a loss of total freedom. And it’s how do you find meaning and purpose in that?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, so your life might be limited in some way. But how do you create a life with meaning within that? I think, I mean, first you have to sit with the loss. You know, obviously, you know, you’re not, someone in that situation is not going to have the same kind of life as a person that can walk out the door every morning and go and get a job. But there are ways of creating meaning in every situation, really. So, you know, who do you want to be in your circumstances?
Michaela McCarthy
But I think a lot of people where they’re doing life, when they’ve kind of come to terms with letting go of what they don’t have, they can actually then follow a purpose of what they can have. And some people study, they paint, they write, they do many things that they never had I suppose that ability to be able to do outside in the bigger world.
Dipti Solanki
Maybe the safety as well to do all of those things.
Sam Hughes
But I think we all need to feel that our life has meaning, you know
Michaela McCarthy
Otherwise, what’s the point of getting up in the morning?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, and so that doesn’t depend on your circumstances. That can be, that can happen anyway.
Dipti Solanki
Yeah, in spite of your circumstances. Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
So what meaning do you have in your life?
Sam Hughes
What’s my meaning?
Dipti Solanki
Just a small question!
Michaela McCarthy
What purpose, meaning do you have?
Sam Hughes
I think meaning for me is about I would like that each person that crosses my path has a good experience from that. You know, I think that’s what it’s about for me.
Michaela McCarthy
That gives you the purpose to keep going, I imagine.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, and I think each interaction each day, you know, whether it’s the guy at the train station or, you know, I don’t know, client or trainee.
Michaela McCarthy
Yeah, local coffee shop.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, you know, I think it’s all about how we treat each other. And every little interaction we have each day is kind of…
Michaela McCarthy
But that’s kind of giving yourself the space and time to be able to be with others, even in just short moments of your day.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, I mean it starts with liking yourself really, doesn’t it?
Michaela McCarthy
Yeah exactly. Yeah. And then how you want to be treated so you treat others the same.
Sam Hughes
Yeah and I think once you feel sort of internally more solid you know you’ve got more to give.
Michaela McCarthy
Yeah it’s true. Yeah.
Dipti Solanki
So, when you eventually did set up your own practice, I’m really interested to know the type of therapy that you now practice, but also whether anything that you learned, developed in art school, do you bring any of that into your therapy room at all?
Sam Hughes
I think I just bring a way of thinking. So, you know, in art, you’re always, you know, moving things around, looking at what you’ve got, working out kind of what works, what you like, what… Yeah, so I think I bring that thought process more than anything. You know, art is all about piecing things together and sort of and then sometimes pulling a wild card out somewhere and so I think I bring that to the thinking rather than anything literally art based.
Dipti Solanki
And what kind of therapy do you practice? Are there any, do you have a niche? Is there anything that you find yourself dealing with a lot in the room?
Sam Hughes
Yeah, mostly I think clients are drawn to me. I do seem to get clients who are mostly not feeling great about themselves and maybe also are struggling with relationships. So I think therapy with me is a very reparative experience. It’s all about changing how you see yourself and thinking about how you relate to others. I mean, clients do come to me quite often with a particular issue or something that they want to sort of talk about. And then we kind of work our way through that. And, you know, they kind of find solutions for that particular problem. And then they just don’t go.
Michaela McCarthy
No, because the issue that they present gets them into the room.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
And then is all other stuff that’s going on.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And I think somewhere in their minds quite often, they might, they realise the potential of it. They realise that, you know, the thinking we’ve done around this particular thing relates to that and could influence another thing. And so I think there’s usually a moment for me where I can tell that someone kind of thinks, you know what, I’m going to stick around for a while and see, because I can see this has got potential. And then they relax into it.
Michaela McCarthy
I think you know who’s going to stick around. And for those who they’ve made a decision, it’s not right for them or they need someone else. Because you might not be the right person for them as well.
Sam Hughes
Yeah. And there’s always, there are some clients that come and you know, and they sort out the thing they’ve come about and then they go.
Michaela McCarthy
And then they might come back. Yeah. Returners.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, people do come back.
Michaela McCarthy
Do another little bit.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah. I’m really pro-autonomy. I really want the client to decide for themselves. I’m not about convincing anybody to do more. I just think if anyone ever wants to leave, yeah, do it. And then they can come back if they want to later on.
Michaela McCarthy
But they’ve got to be ready.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
And now you’re a tutor. You teach.
Sam Hughes
Yes, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
So you’re with the newbie newbies before they even start placement.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, so I teach the Psychodynamic module at The Awareness Centre and the Object Relations and Attachment modules which are my real loves
Michaela McCarthy
Now, you might need to tell the viewers and listeners what, what that is. Object relations attachment theory.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, so people might be more familiar with attachment theory. And that’s about ideas about how we see ourselves in relationship and how we relate to others. Object relations kind of predates attachment theory. Object relations is also about relationships with others. So in any relationship I’m the subject and the other person’s the object. So object relations is about relationships with others. And that’s a whole range of theories around how we relate to each other and how we internalise a sense of ourselves. Yeah, so that’s my area that I love.
Michaela McCarthy
And then obviously clients will transfer onto you. You could be who they think they want you to be or what they’ve missed and how they can heal from what they never had.
Sam Hughes
Yes. Yeah. You can, you can, yeah, it’s like, you know, you’ve, you can be the missing parts as a therapist of what a person has needed and maybe not quite got for one, you know, for many different reasons. So the reparative relationship with a therapist is about really providing the missing parts of formative relationships.
Dipti Solanki
To be that conduit.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s what my therapist was for me. Yeah, because we don’t, you know, it’s hard. We don’t, some of our parents have had difficult times, you know, with all the best will in the world, parents can’t always get it right, you know.
Dipti Solanki
So for people listening, what is it that you’d like them to know when it comes to therapy and self-development and perhaps what therapy can offer you? What are your nuggets of wisdom?
Sam Hughes
I think we’re all glorious, messy, wonderful, you know, sometimes shitty human beings. And I think, you know, I just would want people to embrace that in themselves, you know. Everyone, we only get one shot at this. Absolutely. So, you know, it’s, yeah, I just, I think the clients that come to see me, and the supervisees and the trainees, I just want them to embrace the best of themselves, you know, and cherish it.
Dipti Solanki
Yeah. Thank you for saying that, because immediately, I know we’re supposed to be bracketing here, but yeah, immediately a situation came to my mind. It’s like, yeah, we’re going to mess up and we are messy human beings. And it’s okay to sit with that.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
As long as you keep your kitchen work surface tidy. Definitely. I’ve got an issue with kitchen work surface.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Dipti Solanki
Defnitely! It’s embracing not being perfect human.
Sam Hughes
Yeah, yeah. And then once you let go of that idea, you know, then you can, you can be a version of yourself that you like, I guess.
Dipti Solanki
Yeah. Thank you so much, Sam.
Michaela McCarthy
Thanks for coming in, Sam.
Sam Hughes
Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy
Thank you for that.
Dipti Solanki
Thank you.
Outro
You’ve been listening to A Bunch of Therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy and Dipti Salenki. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review. And don’t forget to follow us on our socials to keep up to date with all of our news. And don’t forget to follow us on our socials to keep up to date with all of our news. Thank you so much and until next time.