Transcript
Intro: Welcome to A Bunch of Therapists, the podcast that goes behind the doors of the therapy room. Our guests will be sharing their experiences of counselling and psychotherapy, and all the lessons they’ve learned on the journey through life. This episode is hosted by Dipti Solanki and me, Michaela McCarthy. Our guest this week is Amy Sharpe.
Michaela McCarthy: So Amy, welcome onto the podcast.
Amy Sharpe: Thank you.
Michaela McCarthy: So tell us, what was your first experience of therapy?
Amy Sharpe: I guess, my first experience of therapy was as a client and I didn’t find it very helpful. I didn’t know anything about therapy. I’m looking back now, I don’t believe I wanted to go. I was told that I should go. This was when I was about 18, I think.
Michaela McCarthy: Okay.
Amy Sharpe: And it was just something, I went there, I didn’t know what to say. We sat in silence. I think I went to one session and I was like, I’m not going back and I didn’t think about it ever again. But going into therapy as a therapist, now I have a completely different view around therapy.
Michaela McCarthy: Well, I think you might not have been ready. Some people are just not ready.
Amy Sharpe: I wasn’t ready. Didn’t know what it was I think I was looking for if I was entering the room anyway.
Michaela McCarthy: So, tell us why you trained as a therapist, because it’s not sort of some… one of those things you think, oh, I know what I’ll do, I’ll train as a therapist. What was your journey?
Amy Sharpe: Stuck a little bit in what I wanted to do. So I was in my early 30s at the time I didn’t really know what I wanted, didn’t really feel like I had a career. So it was suggested to me by my mum, she was like you know you’re always interested in how people work, how they tick, just try it on and see what happens. So I went for like a taster course and I was like I really like this and so then I went into the certificates, then I did the diploma and then, yeah, I did all that and it was very interesting. It was life-changing actually.
Michaela McCarthy: And so you would have went into therapy when you were training. So what was that like for you opening up all the…
Amy Sharpe: It was difficult because I think I had a really kind of ignorant view going in of like this is gonna help me learn about how people work. But this was very external from me. When I used to talk about it, like it’s people, it’s not me not recognising I am the client too, so it was very eye-opening and now going back into… if I reflect, I think that going into therapy wanting to be a therapist was a way of trying to work me out, without having to say it. I didn’t want to say oh I don’t know or I’m unsure so I thought if I go in through the back door no one will see me.
Michaela McCarthy: But they did.
Amy Sharpe: But they did, yeah, so that was my way. I should have just gone to therapy, it would have been less expensive!
Michaela McCarthy: So tell us your story a little bit.
Amy Sharpe: Okay.
Michaela McCarthy: Your background.
Amy Sharpe: So I’m adopted. I was, my mum had me when she was quite young, she was 19. And so I kind of never really lived with her full-time. It was always back and forth between my nan’s or my godparents’ house. And then when I was about 11, I just didn’t go back home to my mum. I stayed with my godparents and they’ve raised me ever since. So, it was a different type of upbringing. Like friends and family, other family, they would just have their mum and dad there or whatever. And it would be very different. But I didn’t feel… it didn’t feel wrong in any way. It felt natural and I wasn’t really aware I suppose that it was different you know. So yeah, that’s me.
Michaela McCarthy: And your nan… so you would have went before between your mum and your nan did you say?
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, so I’d stay with my nan on like the weekends or like during the week or I’d stay with my godparents on the weekend and I guess what happened is I would stay with my godparents and then the days just… I remember like Friday to Sunday, Friday to Tuesday, Friday to Wednesday, so it’s like I’m here for a week now. And so and I think when I look back at the attachment that I created with my parents, it didn’t feel like I was going home anymore, it would just feel like I’m leaving home. Does that make sense? Because I’m with my family, as in my godparents and my siblings there, and I’m like oh and then I would have to go home and that felt strange. So it was more of like I want to stay here. This is where I live. So it just became that, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And did you ever go back to your nan’s, or would you just go visit your nan or something?
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, I mean, you just go visit your nan. So how it was is my godparents were friends of my nan, well, friends of the family, essentially. And so when it was, oh we’ll take her, she needs respite, or this or that and it just became one of those things.
Michaela McCarthy: So do you remember actually, obviously going back, so that kind of can make you feel many things, I imagine.
Amy Sharpe: Anxious, now I recognise now as an adult.
Michaela McCarthy: Because it’s an anxious attachment.
Amy Sharpe: Anxious. I like to know where we’re going. Looking back now, this was explored when I was in therapy, when I was training. Really recognising that I like to know where we’re going, or I like to know how long we’re staying.
Dipti Solanki: Still to this day?
Amy Sharpe: Not so much now, because I recognise it. But then I look back and think, yeah, I was very rigid about that. I didn’t like to stay at people’s houses. I always needed to stay at home. There was something about needing a base, which I look back now and think, okay, well the child was here, there and everywhere. She needed to know that she was staying. And so I think that’s where it came from, looking back now.
Michaela McCcarthy: But that’s creating a safe space, isn’t it?
Amy Sharpe: Most definitely, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: With the, you know, being adopted, moving into a family, even though you knew… or going to your nan’s and having your biological mum. Some, you know, grief is, you know, you grieve and you might not have been aware of grieving, but different bits in your life.
Amy Sharpe: Most definitely and understanding now, especially from my own journey as a client, but also as a therapist, grief isn’t just, oh, somebody dies and we lose them. We grieve so much and we don’t even recognise it. And so understanding we can grieve things we didn’t know we had, like we don’t have, and all of those kind of things. So yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: So that happened. And just out of interest, I wonder whether, you know, I’ve spoken about this before, but actually trauma, and it’s only until actually, you know, you start exploring it a little bit and your life that actually you are traumatised. Because I imagine growing up as a kid, moving from one to the other, that’s traumatising in itself because where’s your safe space?
Amy Sharpe: Most definitely and I think it acts out in different ways, not in like I am traumatised or I am scared but acts out in my anxieties, my need to know and my worry about how long are we staying here. That to me look at, now looking at it I know what that represented, but on the surface I might just be fussy, if you know I mean. So it’s what it represents yeah.
Michaela McCcarthy: So what how have you been affected by your growing up moving around how did that affect you as a person knowing knowing now that you went into therapy when you actually trained as a therapist.
Amy Sharpe: How did my… how did it all affect me? I say it’s made me very compassionate and I’d say that I’ve got patience and I also know a lot about grief and recognising what it means to grieve. I don’t know, I’ve never met my birth dad for example. I know of him, there was potential contact made but he didn’t want to meet me, so that was grief. That was something I had to go through. That was something I didn’t think I would be affected by because I was like you know but… ton of bricks… I was like oh my goodness so much processing to get through of like…. yeah or just somebody… or rejection essentially. Right? So? There was a lot of that… what’s wrong with me… so that was a real piece of work I had to do and I think that changed me, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And so for other people who are listening or viewing this, you know, there will be many people where, you know, a parent, it’s not that they’re lost through death, but they just left.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And, or they didn’t want to meet their child. Okay. You know, when you, you know, I can imagine you would feel rejected. But I mean, what would you say to other people? What was it like, the rejection?
Amy Sharpe: At the time I was very angry and I think even if we take him out of the equation, I used to be very angry with my birth mum as well. I didn’t really understand what was going on but as I got older I recognised she’s a person right, so she’s got all of these things going on for her. She had a process, she’s had traumas like, so I understood her as a person and that gave me so much more understanding of her. And we have a good relationship. I mean it’s not mummy and daughter, but she’s someone I care and love, right?
So it’s very different. And I think with him, I don’t know, but I must, I have to assume that this person must be very confused. They must have their own things going on. So it allows me to see them for what it is. It doesn’t mean I have to… I think empathy, for me, we can empathise, but we don’t necessarily need to tolerate. There’s a difference. So I can understand where someone’s coming from, but I don’t necessarily have to tolerate the behaviour from them. So I had to grieve that. I was angry. Now, looking back, OK, that’s fine. But, yeah, I empathise but I don’t tolerate. I think that’s something.
Michaela McCarthy: And have you seen any photos of him?
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, I’ve seen one photo. Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And so what do you recognise when you look in that photo?
Amy Sharpe: Nothing. Nothing. It’s very strange. As I’ve gotten older I think I look more like my mum anyway, so that probably helps. But I don’t see anything in him.
Michaela McCarthy: Does he feel like a stranger?
Amy Sharpe: Most definitely, yeah. Most definitely. So, yeah, that was difficult to get my head around. And, yeah, rejection, I suppose, is the bottom line.
Michaela McCarthy: So how did you get over feeling rejected?
Amy Sharpe: I’ve made… How did I get over it? I made peace with it a little bit. I grieved it. I probably went through those stages of grief. I was very angry, but I have a good support system. I’m loved by my family and so, although yes, I feel rejected over here, I’m very much wanted and loved here and that counts for something. So yeah, it helped balance it, I think.
Dipti Solanki: I imagine it counts for so much.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah most definitely.
Dipti Solanki: You know, thank you for sharing all of that, because I can see how close that is and that feeling of rejection but also what’s really important that you touched on there is our support network as well. Can you talk to us about the difference having that support network can make as opposed to not having it? Like, what does it, what can it do to a person? And why is it so important for us to have the right people around us, especially when we’re going on such a journey?
Amy Sharpe: I think it’s important because I think if we remove everything, as humans we are born to connect, like we are wired for it so we need it, we crave it, it’s part of our survival, if I’m in need, you know, I reach out, so it’s that, we need to know that there is someone that we can go to so it’s not about quantity, it’s about quality. So if it’s just one person, and sometimes for people it’s just their therapist, yes it’s a different kind of relationship, but it’s still a connection. So it’s incredibly important that we feel connected. Like, yeah, it’s part of our makeup.
Dipti Solanki: What is it about that connection, whether it’s a therapist, a friend, a family member, what is it that we need in those spaces?
Amy Sharpe: We need to be seen. We need to be heard. We need to feel like a human being. I think we can have conversations in our head, and we can talk ourselves into holes. And actually, friends, families, having people around us, we can see ourselves as well. I know what that feels like, or I understand that, or I don’t understand it, but I’m here anyway. It’s that, it’s being seen, I think, and feeling safe to be in whatever emotional space you’re in.
Dipti Solanki: Can you expand on that? Because I think that’s a really great juxtaposition to talk about, because I think many people feel that when they go to therapists it’s almost like what you’d get from a friend or a loved one, you know I can just talk to someone that I know but actually it’s very different.
Amy Sharpe: Very different. Well for one as therapists we can’t give advice, we’re not there to dictate or to kind of teach it’s not that environment but we’re there to observe, we’re there reflect, we’re there to offer space for that client to kind of explore themselves. It’s a bit like going to a gallery with someone and it’s like, okay, show me that picture, show me that picture, we’re kind of walking through the client’s, I don’t know, frame of reference.
Dipti Solanki: I like that idea, walking through a gallery.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, they’re going through the gallery, they’re showing us the work, you know, what does that mean? Tell me how that makes you feel, that kind of thing. So…
Michaela McCarthy: Well I think, you know, being a therapist, from my experience, okay, and I’ve worked with people for years, you know, however, it’s interesting because I might be the most important person to them in their life, especially if you’re in a longer term therapeutic relationship because of attachments. And I kind of go into their world, they invite me into their world, but I don’t live in it.
Amy Sharpe: Such a privilege though.
Michaela McCarthy: I mean, it is a privilege to go into the world and for them to share their experience, their relationships, how they would like them better or different or what they’re looking for, how they live their life, what work they do, you know, all those things and and yet I don’t I don’t get to meet those people, you know.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, it’s such a strange thing isn’t it?
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah, yeah.
Dipti Solanki: It’s like a very intimate relationship.
Amy Sharpe: Most definitely but also extremely professional. But different. As well, yeah. So it’s like it’s I don’t know with my… when I was in therapy we were working on being more confident to kind of do things like, for example, when I was young, when I was training I’d realised I don’t go on holiday. Like I was like because I don’t like leaving home. I used to always say because I’m busy I can’t afford it, I’ve got too much work, I used to have to create excuses, but what I just didn’t really like, is I didn’t like going home, leaving home for long periods of time, because of my anxiety.
Michaela McCarthy: But that’s quite common with the anxiety of not going on holiday, like travel. If you’re going somewhere, you need to know if you can get a taxi or near a tube station to get home, your exit.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, so all of those things make sense to me now, but then it was just like, I’m a homebody. But I remember I went on holiday, and I must have finished with my therapist at the time, and I remember I was on holiday, I was on the beach, and I was like, I’m gonna take a picture and I’m gonna send it to her, and I’m gonna show her I’m on holiday. And obviously, you know that maybe wasn’t particularly the rules of sending flowers, I was like no I have to. So I remember saying thank you so much because if it wasn’t for you I don’t think I would have gone on holiday and left home you know. I remember once I was young, my older sister and there was must have been like a house party or a function or something and I fell asleep and so they left me, my mum and dad said yeah, we’ll come and get her in the morning, don’t wanna wake her. And I remember I woke up in the morning and I was so overwhelmed, cause I was like, I’m not at home. So even that memory, I was very, very young, but even that memory of feeling like I’m not at home, that stayed with me, I think. So when I think about it, in little sneaky ways, but really it was just needing to feel safe. Mm. Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: What else did you experience with the depression or grief from that, you know, your childhood?
Amy Sharpe: I would just say… ..really low mood. OK. But when I was younger, not being able to know what it was.
Michaela McCarthy: Mm-hm.
Amy Sharpe: And I think therapy gave me a language, it gave me an understanding, especially looking back and going, oh that’s what I was feeling, that’s what that is, it gave me information and it gave me so much more power, you know.
Dipti Solanki: You talked about depression, can we just expand on that if that’s okay? Yeah. So I imagine a lot of people listening to this or watching it will know the word depression either through seeing loved ones go through it or even experiencing it themselves And I think everyone’s experience of depression is very different, isn’t it? So if you’re comfortable talking about it, I’d love to understand what your experience of depression was. Interestingly before the training and after the training as well?
Amy Sharpe: Well both were not enjoyable. I would say for me it’s an overwhelm, it’s like a grief, for me it feels like grief, it feels like a sadness that I can’t put words to, so I’m very teary or I’m very tired. For me depression means to hibernate, it means to sleep. There’s some kind of rest that my body, looking back now, it’s like you’re tired, you’re overwhelmed and you’re tired, you’re drained. That’s what depression felt like to me.
Michaela McCarthy: So to shut yourself down, take a break.
Amy Sharpe: To shut down. So it’s like that feeling of just wanting to sleep. And for me, with my therapist hat on, I know now that that’s actually me wanting to rest. There is a part of me that is particularly tired. Maybe it’s the part that’s pretending. Maybe it’s the part that’s working too hard, the part that has no boundaries. There is a part that is very tired. And if you don’t check in it will check out and then you have to do the work, so for me it was a case of not enough checking in maybe not enough, I don’t know, I suppose the circumstances will beyond my control in the sense that yeah I experienced these external things but not enough maybe checking in with what how that was really affecting me.
Dipti Solanki: Amy, you know, thank you for sharing your experience of depression and those symptoms because I mean I’m a great believer that symptoms are there to speak to us and they’re trying to get our attention. And obviously you’ve built up a lot of awareness around that but for many people listening to this, a lot of those signs and symptoms are frightening.
Amy Sharpe: Does that person have a safe person in their life they can talk to? So that’s really important, you know, can I discuss this with you? Can I check in about how I feel? And also recognising, I think, that we aren’t just born and living to be happy all the time. It’s very important.
Dipti Solanki: Absolutely.
Michaela McCarthy: We’d get locked up if we were like happy all the time.
Amy Sharpe: We’re not just made that way, we have emotions for a reason. So it’s also incredibly healthy and normal to feel sad, to feel angry, to feel frustrated. We have to have that ability because that’s information about our environment.
So that is really important. So sometimes we may feel like we failed because we’re sad about something, but that just means you’re working well. Being emotionally healthy, having good mental health is the ability to have those emotions and survive them.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah, you feel a full range of them.
Amy Sharpe: Right, we need to be able to have those tools.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah. But I remember first going into therapy, I didn’t really know, I knew the words of feelings, but I didn’t know how to name my feelings. Okay, that was the difference. And I think a lot of people don’t know how to name their feelings. They know the words, they hear about it.
Amy Sharpe: They just are. They can feel comfortable, they can feel uncomfortable, but there is a place for them.
Michaela McCarthy: But they list them as good and bad. You know, so it’s good to laugh, but it’s bad to cry. You know, it’s…
Amy Sharpe: It’s the stories we attach to them, right?
Dipti Solanki: And the messages we’ve received.
Michaela McCarthy: So if you think about training to be a therapist, now there’s many therapists out there.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: Many reasons why people train to be a therapist.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: But going into therapy, training to be a therapist is something different. Not everyone who goes into personal therapy trains to be a therapist. What do you think it is about people who train to be a therapist? You know, what is it about some people why they do it? Because it’s not for everybody.
Amy Sharpe: No, it’s not for everybody.
Michaela McCarthy: You know, you think, oh God, I couldn’t be a therapist, I couldn’t sit there and listen to everybody, all their sad stories.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, they say that, don’t they? But I don’t see therapy as that, though.
Michaela McCarthy: It’s not like that when you’re with another human being. Youre actually sitting with another human being.
Amy Sharpe: It’s not. It’s relational. I can only speak for myself really, but for me it was trying to figure me out. It’s like I just want to know what’s going on but I’m gonna try and get some information. It was like it felt sneaky I think we said before but yeah for me I wanted to learn about me but I didn’t want to say it. I don’t know whether I felt embarrassed or I felt like I should know already.
Dipti Solanki: That’s the feeling that so many people have though, right? I should have figured myself out by now.
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, I should know this by now. I was already in my 30s. I was like, whoops, you know. So for me, it was a way of trying to figure myself out. And that’s probably why I really got stuck in, because it was like, okay, I’m going to use this.
Dipti Solanki: But also I don’t think that it’s really possible to be a therapist or a good one without curiosity.
Michaela McCarthy: No, you’ve got to be curious. I mean I think going into train and into therapy, you’ve got to be curious about yourself, you’ve got to be curious about the other.
Dipti Solanki: It’s about deeply connecting with someone, or even on a level where you really understand each other. You might not end up liking each other, but you understand each other. You might not end up liking each other but you understand each other and that’s so important and that emotional honesty thing I think really scares a lot of people because sometimes I think people are often scared of their own thoughts and feelings.
Amy Sharpe: People shy away from you too because they think for some reason that you’re a therapist that you can now read their mind. So this conversation gets very, very like surface level and straight and you’re like, it’s like, okay, and then they just go away. They don’t want to engage, they think that somehow you’re gonna figure them out, which we don’t have that power obviously.
Dipti Solanki: Do you tell everyone you’re a therapist on that note?
Amy Sharpe: Well, what, if I don’t want to engage? I just tell them!
Dipti Solanki: Do you find that because you’ve told people you’re a therapist and that the conversation can kind of just become very surface and standoffish, do you find yourself not wanting to tell people you’re a therapist?
Amy Sharpe: No, I would tell people what I do. I’m proud that I do it. Yeah, and most people will gravitate to you, but there are some people that will lean away.
Michaela McCarthy: But I wonder what message would you share with the viewers and listeners out there about going into therapy? You know, whatever their issue.
Amy Sharpe: For me, I think a lot of the time we get the idea, people get the idea that therapy is about crisis. So it’s this last place that you go. For me, therapy can also be preventative as well. We go there because we just want to work out, but in our mind. So we go to the gym, we don’t necessarily have to wait to have a heart attack to do that.
We can do it now. And so it’s the same. So I have clients that use the space for so many different reasons. It could be a specific issue that they’re working on, or I’m just a diary. They come in, they etch it out, they’ll see me next week and it’s that. So using the space, I think you don’t have to wait for it to feel unbearable, you can just go in.
Michaela McCarthy: So I wonder whether some people feel when they do jump in to the world of therapy or you know when you say mental health or just looking at yourself, exploring yourself, is actually maybe quite a brave thing.
Amy Sharpe: Massively.
Michaela McCarthy: You know, because what you’re doing, you’re going against the norm.
Amy Sharpe: Mm, yeah, massively. And people can go their whole lives and not really know who they are, you know? The bottom line is that we all want the same thing. We want to feel safe, we want to be loved, we want to be accepted. We all share that need, right?
Michaela McCarthy: We’re all human at the end of the day. And I think that breaks through cultures. You know, pain’s pain, right?
Amy Sharpe: Yeah, most definitely.
Michaela McCarthy: So I think that’s a message that we can send out to the viewers and listeners.
Amy Sharpe: Yes, agreed.
Michaela McCarthy: Good. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast.
Amy Sharpe: Thank you for having me.
Michaela McCarthy: It’s a pleasure.
Amy Sharpe: Thank you.
Outro: You’ve been listening to A Bunch of Therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy and Dipti Solanki. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and review. And don’t forget to follow us on our socials to keep up to date with all of our news.