Transcript
Intro: Hello and welcome to A Bunch Of Therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy. And me, Dipti Solanki, will be bringing you stories and insights from inside the therapy room. Who’s our guest this week, Michaela?
Michaela McCarthy: So, we have someone remarkable, her name is Nina Stephenson-Camps and she is a therapist, she’s a coach, she worked in PR. She will be talking also about a bereavement that she experienced which actually I think, you know, she will tell her story, but I think a lot of viewers and listeners will be able to, if they’ve had you know someone close in their life that has passed away, how difficult it can be and how you know to navigate your way and through someone dying and then kind of rebuilding your life.
Dipti Solanki: I’m really looking forward to it. I think it’s always helpful to hear someone speak so openly about a close bereavement or loss of any kind because there’s always going to be people out there who will find a little bit of themselves in that story.
Michaela McCarthy: Absolutely.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah, yeah great. Looking forward to speaking with her.
Michaela McCarthy: So Nina, welcome to our podcast A Bunch of Therapists. Thank you for coming on.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Great to be here.
Michaela McCarthy: So, tell us why you first went into therapy. We like starting with a bit of a journey really.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: So I first went into therapy probably about 22 years ago and it was because I just felt so unhappy and I couldn’t work out why. And I probably, just thinking about it, just had about maybe five or six sessions, maybe even less than that actually if I cast my mind back, because the question started to come up about my family and I just wasn’t ready to kind of go there. But I didn’t realise that at the time. I was just, I mean, I was in a completely different headspace. So I stopped there and then, and didn’t go back to it for about, probably about 10 years.
Then I went travelling. I realised that I, when I was travelling, that I had a lot of, I had alcohol and drug addictions. Decided that I would get clean. And when I came back, although I was in NA and AA, at different times, I wanted to go a bit deeper in terms of, you know, the reasons why I was, you know was getting so dependent on other substances.
And that’s when I really started my journey from a therapy perspective. And actually, when I think about it, I did work with another therapist for about a year prior to me going travelling. And that was really, really helpful. So since, for the last 17 years, 18 years, I’ve been in therapy in some kind of guise but more, I would say, really consistently in the last seven years, six, seven years.
Michaela McCarthy: And why consistently in the last six, seven years? Because I then started to really look at my family dynamics and I was also a mum at that point and I really wanted to make sure that I didn’t, that if I, the more that I worked on myself and had more awareness, then that would hopefully prevent me from passing on anything unhealthy to my daughters. That was really, that’s my driving force, to be quite honest with you, why I still see my therapist now. I mean circumstances from a life perspective as well but you know that that’s my driver really. I really want to make sure that I’m not that I’m bringing my daughters up in a way in the healthiest way possible emotionally.
Michaela McCarthy: And dependency and addiction for you now, what’s that?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Well I mean I haven’t had any alcohol or any drugs for 17 years, which is really good, which I’m really pleased about that. But that’s almost, it’s almost like a sideline now because I’m so invested in creating as much emotional awareness within myself and parenting my girls really well, that it doesn’t really, it doesn’t really figure in my life anymore. Yeah… and it’s a good starting point.
Dipti Solanki: I found this really interesting and I think a lot of people might be able to resonate with this is when you first went into therapy there was a point at which perhaps when more difficult material started coming up, you weren’t able to go any further while the drink and drugs were part of the picture.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes
Dipti Solanki: But once you kind of take away those barriers, if you like, it allows you to access more.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes. And I was a functioning addict. So, and I worked in PR at the time. So, this is, you know, late 90s, early…
Michaela McCarthy: Everyone’s out drinking and partying.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Exactly. I was in my 20s, you know, it was just what I did. So, and my friends did as well. So, it didn’t ever even occur to me that it might be an issue.
Dipti Solanki: It was normalised.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: And totally normalised until I went travelling, and then I was on my own in a completely new environment and that’s when I started to see, it was very obvious that I had issues.
Dipti Solanki; And even there’s that really interesting pivotal part of your story as well about why you went travelling. What happened before that?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, yeah, it was so ironic. So I had been working in PR and I’d always wanted a certain position, beauty director. That was literally going to be Nirvana.
Michaela McCarthy: That was it, you’ve made it.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Absolutely. Once I got that title, I was going to be like, you know made it. Absolutely, once I got that title I was gonna be like, you know, Dick Whittington, the streets were paved with gold, you know. Anyway, and I was promoted and I couldn’t believe it. I remember it to this day, really vivid memory and I can physically remember it. I remember thinking, oh my god, I don’t feel any different. And I couldn’t believe that I was gutted because I’d spent so many years working towards this goal.
And I got there and I just felt completely flat. So that then, I then had a breakdown. I didn’t go into work for about two weeks and I saw a life coach and at that time if you had said to me you’re gonna see a life coach I would have just laughed. I mean I just thought it was all nonsense you know. Anyway my therapist, my coach said to me if money was no object, if you couldn’t fail what would you do? And I said I’d go travelling and I’d write. She was like, so do that. And I was a bit like, oh, okay. And then, and so that’s what I did. And then that’s, that basically was the catalyst for all of the change. And…
Michaela McCarthy: So, how long were you travelling?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Um, a year. Yeah, a year. So I went, I travelled solo around Southeast Asia, Tibet, and Nepal. It was a fantastic experience.
Michaela McCarthy: So when did you actually stop the drinking? And is that when you were travelling during your time? So you kind of made a decision, I’m gonna, this is the day.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, I’m smiling because my last alcoholic drink was at Raffles in Singapore.
Dipti Solanki: Way to go out!
Nina Stephenson-Camps: So I was like, this is my last drink, this is it. So and then you know, the floodgates really opened and I was able to then start really understanding, through therapy, what ws driving me to escape. So it was a very, a really powerful time and it was quite ironic because you know I left for the airport to go travelling and I was hungover and I’d been drinking with my friends about 6 in the morning and even the taxi driver was like you know God bless you like I hope you’re gonna be okay. Poor guy must have thought I was completely mad. And then I came back, you know, sober with a yoga mat. So I just, it was just very ironic.
Michaela McCarthy: They were going ,what happened to you?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Literally, yeah, my friends were really shocked. And that was quite hard, you know, and I think that is quite hard when you’re, you know, trying to wrap your head around why you’re dependent on certain, you know, drugs or whatever it may be. You have a social network and a role within that. And suddenly…
Michaela McCarthy: And then you don’t fit into it anymore.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, I lost a really good friend, a very, very good friend. And my whole perspective and life, you know, completely changed. For the better, I might add 100%, but it was very hard. It’s very hard.
Michaela McCarthy: Well, because you lose your network. Yes. And they can’t relate to you and you can’t relate to them.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And so that’s where I think the Fellowship 12 Step does help to meet people.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes.
Michaela McCarthy: And you’re on a road, but then obviously you wanted to go deeper.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: And so you came back.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Came back, started working with this great therapist that enabled me to look at aspects of my childhood. I was like bullied at school, I’d never ever looked at that. So that was very helpful and it really helped me understand my dynamics with my female bosses.
Dipti Solanki: Oh, interesting.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: Say more about that.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I always had very, I found them quite tricky relationships with women that were, you know, were basically my line managers. And I was always very apprehensive about being in around groups of women. And I worked at that time predominantly in PR. I worked in PR predominantly very female led at that time. And so in looking at the way in which I was quite fearful of groups of women and how I would approach those situations
Michaela McCarthy: And did that come from being bullied at school?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: From being bullied and also the relationship with my mum as well, which I later went on to find that, you know, to realise that. So it was very helpful learning and understanding more about how the impact of my relationship with my mum, who was basically my first bully, and then when I was at school how that impacted how I showed up in social situations and so then I could get an understanding, more of an understanding, as to why I would rely on alcohol and drugs to give me more confidence.
Michaela McCarthy: A bit of Dutch courage.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Seemingly. But actually it wasn’t confidence.
Michaela McCarthy: But it numbs.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes. Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: So when you came back from travel, going back into the work, what did you do then?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: It was crazy because I went back into PR as a freelancer, sober, and I couldn’t, like I was literally like, wow, no wonder I drank.
Dipti Solanki: What was your experience of it sober?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Very chaotic, very harsh, very fast paced, that’s fine though. But very, like quite blamey, I would say, from a PR perspective. I think, and I then worked in advertising, advertising is very different.
Michaela McCarthy: In what way?
Michaela McCarthy: So, my opinion is that if you work in PR, you’re more of a people pleaser.
Michaela McCarthy: Okay.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Whereas I think when you work in advertising, you’re more confident in that, in that this is the work. So that’s when I started to develop mindset techniques, when I went into freelancing. Because having been travelling and I retrained, well I trained as a yoga teacher and meditation teacher as well, I started to use different techniques from a meditation perspective to keep myself calm.
Michaela McCarthy: And these techniques?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Are very much based on your breathing and also your perspective. So having the ability to anchor yourself in the moment and then check in with your internal narrative and being able to flip that as and when you need to. So what I mean by that is, you know, say for example, your inbox is pinging and it’s going crazy and you start to notice that you’re getting stressed out about it. It’s a case of stopping what you’re doing, taking some deep breaths, and then thinking about the logical next one step. So it’s keeping you more in the moment because when you’re stressed, as you know, you can fast forward into the future or you go back into the past.
Dipti Solanki: And how much do you think being in therapy enabled you to be in that space, to lean on those mindfulness techniques? Do you think it would have made a difference if you hadn’t done therapy beforehand?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: I think it made a huge difference because the more I worked on myself and the more I continue to work on myself, the more self-assured I am and the clearer I am on my own values and less worried about how I’m going to be perceived, frankly. Because it’s very easy to get caught up in the energy or the atmosphere of what other people are creating.
Dipti Solanki: And also what other people think and I think that’s an affliction that so many people, it forms a barrier for so much for so many people. And that’s something it sounds like therapy helps you kind of let go off or?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes, to a degree. I mean, it’s not that I’m not aware of how other people are.
Dipti Solanki: That’s different, I think, yeah.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: For sure, but I’m less concerned about how I might be perceived because I have more self-trust, self-belief.
Michaela McCarthy: Insight.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, and also, you know, my upbringing was an environment where I was constantly undermined. So any like reality was questioned in the sense of, oh, you’re making it up, you’re oversensitive, you’re this, you’re that.
So I was constantly questioning myself. And so what therapy has given me is the ability to actually develop a lot more self-trust.
Dipti Solanki: If you think about the corporate space, where do you think there is a lot of work that needs to be done?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: I would say in people understanding themselves and understanding why they do what they do. So really being able to cultivate that emotional intelligence.
We hear in the corporate world a lot about compassion and empathy and be kind but a lot of people aren’t actually kind with themselves. So in my opinion that is where the work needs to be.
Michaela McCarthy: It’s difficult to be kind to yourself if you’re not kind to others or vice versa. So you leaving PR and everything, what did you do next?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: So my husband and I moved to Leigh-on-Sea in Essex. A huge change for us, we were really, really excited about that. And I started to work more on my mindset coaching, but also freelancing at the same time. So, and since then, that’s what I’ve been doing. So, you know, I work as a fractional marketing consultant and then I also work from a mindset perspective, you know. So it gives me an opportunity to see how people are working and then also, so that ensures that the tools that I share are really relevant. And some organisations book me to actually work with their teams. You know, in that sense.
Michaela McCarthy: I was going to ask that, you know, how do you work with teams? Because obviously your experience of having therapy, you know, you can go in and look at operations, but it all comes back to people again, right?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Actually.
Michaela McCarthy: Family systems. So what happens when you’ve gone in to look at some teams?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Really, really interesting. It depends very much on how deep, how invested the organisation wants to go and also the people as well. And it doesn’t have to be that deep, to be quite honest with you. It’s more about asking the right questions, and that helps teams reflect, and looking at different teams and how they’re put together, and maybe making some tweaks there, you can always see, sometimes, if there’s a type of personality that can be quite overbearing for some people, it’s just helping that person, supporting that person, to recognise what that is and how they can make small tweaks, you know, from a leadership perspective. I also think sometimes, often, people don’t know why they’re doing what they’re doing. So even though they might think, oh, this is a bit, I’m being a bit out of order. They kind of don’t know any more than that. So say…
Dipti Solanki:And also sometimes they can’t stop themselves and they don’t like the behaviour.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes. So say, for example, in a work context, when someone is really stressed out, it means they’re scared. So, and I can have that conversation with other members of the team, not, oh, Caroline’s scared, but, you know, when you’re stressed, you feel anxious. So when you see that in someone else, you can again have that bit of grace for them. So it’s just things like that.
Dipti Solanki: That sounds like helping people develop compassion.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes, yeah.
Dipti Solanki: And that’s really hard, I find, sometimes in corporate spaces, because there’s such an agenda and everything is so fast-paced as you say.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Dipti Solanki: But that bit of humanity and compassion can just help everything just turn the corner on so many things.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Definitely. You can physically see people soften because at the end of the day we all just want to feel understood and we all just want to be heard. And in corporate environments there isn’t… there’s almost this illusion that you have to be really hard and really tough and not show any emotion. And so, and people are scared of not being good enough. I mean, that I think is probably the red thread that holds us all together as humans and not being part of the pack.
Michaela McCarthy: When you work, you go in as a consultant and then you, you know, I’ve seen you online doing your bits and then where else have you gone with your life?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: So then my husband was diagnosed with stage 4 Gleason 9 prostate cancer. It was really, really horrendous because it was literally six months after we had made this dream move and he was doing really well at work and doing business and all the rest of it. He really was exceptional human.
And he, you know, he walked through it with so much grace. It was actually phenomenal, you know, looking back. But, you know, he was diagnosed in October 21.
Michaela McCarthy: It was during Covid, wasn’t it
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yep, yep. And you know, life changed completely, really. And then he passed away in October on his birthday in 23. And it was a very horrendous experience really. It was horrendous but it was also really illuminating because thankfully for him as well in the sense that he was able, we both were, able to really experience a fantastic community and how loved he is.
Michaela McCarthy: Well it’s experiencing, you know, you’re going through the loss as he comes to an end, different stages, especially with cancer or any illness, that you experience that. And some people don’t get to experience that bit, even though it’s hard towards the end. But I imagine that bit, conversations and…
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, I mean we had, it was, in some ways it was really helpful because we got, we said things, you know, we had conversations that we wouldn’t have ever had otherwise and we got everything in order, so to speak. But it wasn’t until, you know, the last six weeks of his life that we really realised that that was it, that everything had been done that could have been done. Up until that point, and I remember saying to him, and we always had quite a kind of, you know, a banterish relationship, and I would say to him, you know, you will die and you’ll be fine because you’ll be in bliss and I’ll be here sorting it all out.
Michaela McCarthy: But the thing is, it’s like, well, you do have to find your life and that takes time. And obviously you have the girls as well. And I remember my father, he said, when I’m dead, he said, I won’t know. I’m dead. You know, but we know.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes. It’s almost a bit unfair.
Michaela McCarthy: Sure.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: In some ways.
Michaela McCarthy: But the thing is, it’s like, in the end, they let go. They’re getting to the, I can’t do this, you know. I mean, obviously it was different in my case, but, you know, for Steph, it’s, he, I would imagine he got to that stage and said, I’m done, I’m done. I think, yes, I mean, definitely. So he had been to Turkey for treatment, for, yeah, for treatment in Turkey and that hadn’t worked. And so when we came back and he had four immune therapy treatments, he couldn’t get that over here.
And I remember it really vividly, you know, the third, by the third one that will tell you, you know, you’ll be able to tell whether it’s really worked. And I remember it so vividly, the 4th of August, we went out, and it was the first time he’d ever, he’d left the hotel room because he was just bedridden the whole time. And he was in a wheelchair, but he seemed really perky. And I remember thinking, oh my God, this is it. This is the turning point. So I genuinely thought at that point that he was going to live. And it wasn’t until we flew back that I looked at him and it dawned on me and I thought, oh my God, he’s…
Dipti Solanki: Did you just have a sense?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, I thought he’s, this is it. And then we met with a doctor and well a nurse and she was just like we were sitting at home and she came over and she just said look you can either have another session in Turkey but it’s gonna take so much out of you and if you want to die at home you know that decision could be taken away from you if something happens. And I think he would have done it if I had said to him, let’s just go for it. I think he would have, he would have gone for it. But, but I said, look…
Michaela McCarthy: I suppose not wanting to let you and the kids down.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: No. He would have never wanted that at all. And at that point I said to him, you know… we got the scans back, the cancer had spread, let’s just make the rest of your life as brilliant as possible. And so, I think, you know, it was important for me to say that to him.
Michaela McCarthy: To be able to let him go.
Dipti Solanki: And then both of you come into that place of acceptance so the next part of the journey could unfold.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, and then that was kind of like, right, okay, I’m gonna make it as wonderful for him as possible. Yeah, I know, I guess…
Michaela McCarthy: Sure.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Oh, I’m gonna cry. I’m so glad I was able to do that. It was just the best thing ever.
Dipti Solanki: What a privilege to be able to, because I think the concept of death takes so much control away from us, but to be able to navigate that in a way that worked for you, for Steph, for your family, is a privilege, isn’t it?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Definitely, yeah, 100%. And also, you know, for the girls as well, because, you know, thankfully, because of his, you know, he was a psychotherapist and he had, he’d said to me, look, I’ve worked with clients who weren’t told that their mum or dad was dying and it’s had a huge impact on them. So I really want to make sure that we keep the girls up to speed with what’s going on and in the best way possible, because at the time they were nine and ten.
Dipti Solanki: So little.
So little and so we were able to have that conversation with them which you know was probably one of the hardest things I’ve ever, you know, I mean…
Michaela McCarthy: Because young people just don’t think about death.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: No.
Michaela McCarthy: You know, unless they’ve experienced someone in the home that is going to die, they’re so far removed because they just think, well, I’m going to live forever.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes.
They don’t think about their own death or…
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: Because they just haven’t been around it.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: And also they just compute it in a very different way as well. And it was quite funny. I mean, it’s so funny how it’s really interesting how you can have the most saddest situation and then in some way, shape or form, it gets lightened. And we’d spoken to the girls, spoken to Savannah and Skye, and it was obviously very sad and very emotional. And then about 10 minutes later, Skye turned around, who’s our youngest, and she said, who’s going to have your mobile phone then? And Steph just burst, we burst out laughing because she was obviously like, can I have your phone? He was like, great. Yeah, of course you can.
Dipti Solanki: It’s the surface and depth that we talk about in therapy.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: It was so funny.
Dipti Solanki: You need that.
Michaela McCarthy: Absolutely. But kids can actually move.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: You know, because they’ve got a lot of life, or we hope that they do.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Dipti Solanki: But children also grieve very differently.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
It’s like, I think it’s likened to them jumping into puddles of grief and then like, okay, ready, jump straight back out. And to be surrounded by that energy as adults is much needed on that journey of grief, I think.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: 100%.
Michaela McCarthy: But I think it’s important for kids to be able to say that.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes. Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: Can I have your mobile phone when you die, please?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah. And she has got his phone. And it’s, you know, that’s really important to her. But it was funny. It really lightened it, which was good. It was, yeah, like you said, it was really needed.
Michaela McCarthy: And it was real. For her.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, very much so. And Savannah had her own, who’s a bit older, had her own sort of process around it. But she is, goes more within, whereas Skye’s more expressive, openly in that way.
Michaela McCarthy: So she goes out.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, so it’s just a different way of dealing with it. But yeah, you know, being able to give him that experience, and for the girls to experience as well, because we’re so, as a society, as a culture, we’re so strange when it comes to death.
Michaela McCarthy: Well, people don’t want to talk to you, do they?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: No.
Michaela McCarthy: As soon as there’s death or something terrible’s going on, you’re like, you don’t hear from anyone.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes.
Michaela McCarthy: I don’t like you, just in case I say something wrong.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah, or you don’t hear from the people you expect to hear from. But then you have all these unexpected angels that descend.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes, yeah. And it’s funny because, it’s not really that funny, but it’s interesting that when he died, people would say to me, I bet everyone’s phoning you. And no one would call me because everyone thought they were phoning me, which was fine. I mean, I had, you know, I obviously had calls, but it wasn’t the influx of calls that people, I think, expect.
Michaela McCarthy: Well, because they think, oh, I’ll let them… all cultures are different, but let them have that space. And you sort of think, especially when someone so close dies and then you’re in the bubble, because, you know, funeral arrangements and this, that actually you might just want to chat.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, absolutely. And not about death either.
Michaela McCarthy: Anything. How hard it is to arrange or this or that.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Just you know.
Michaela McCarthy: And people go, I’ll give them their space.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, and actually you don’t really want to do…
Michaela McCarthy: Space to do what?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, exactly. You don’t really slide down walls crying in my experience. It’s not as literal as that.
Dipti Solanki: What has been your experience of grief?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: I think a lot of people when it comes to a partner dying think it’s like a divorce or breakup. So and my experience of it has been mostly trying to navigate other people’s projections. I can’t believe you’re still going. That sort of thing, which is just, is, I guess, kind of a compliment, but not, you know, it’s been really, really interesting.
I mean, before Steph died, so I’m just trying to think about six months before he died, I was really let down by someone quite close who I kind of thought that… I had suspicions that I couldn really rely on. But then it became really obvious that I couldn’t. And when that happened, I thought right I need to get my tribe as it were, I need to get clear on who’s in, who can I rely upon and who, you know, I can’t say much because people have different abilities don’t they?
Dipti Solanki: Capacities.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Capacities, that’s it, yeah. And so I made a list, quite logical like that. So I made a list, I had three categories. Someone, you know, are you going to be there for me no matter what?
Obviously very short list, which is fine. You know, who is great for conversations? Who can I rely upon to like to look after the girls? That sort of thing. So I had my kind of tribe, so to speak, very clear in my head. So that when it did, you know, became clear that he wasn’t going to live, I didn’t have to…
So in terms of a lot of people talk about, you know, grief and they’re really surprised at who was there and who wasn’t. That didn’t surprise me. Because I already knew.
Michaela McCarthy: You just know, you know really, don’t you?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: But tell me how, you know, life after Steph and your work and the girls, I mean. I mean, a just a total change in perspective. You know, watching the girls go through their grief has been heartbreaking and very hard. You know, very, I wasn’t expecting what happened. I wasn’t expecting, I think I was expecting more sobbing, actually, oh my goodness I miss daddy. But it wasn’t like that at all, it was more anger and pure rage. So I invested in a child psychologist that I see also as well with my therapist to help me parent the girls because I was really aware of the fact and it’s something my therapist recommended, that in grieving, so I’m grieving, the girls are grieving, and also they’re at ages which are really activating for me from my own childhood. So I want to just be really careful really about how I approached it because also I didn’t know how to approach it either.
Michaela McCarthy: Well you don’t until you know right? No, yeah. You know unless you’ve been in that situation, how do you know?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: And it’s so isolating. You know no one, there’s, there are literally no words to describe what it has been like. They’re just, they just aren’t words and you can’t, you know, you, it’s, it’s very hard for people to understand what, how, how emotions drive the behaviour. So it’s not a, oh, you know, your daughter’s really misbehaving. Yeah, it might seem like that, but actually she’s deep in grief and she feels completely powerless. And so she is going to have a go at me about it.
That’s not to say it’s okay and it’s not to say that I let it go. But the last thing you need when you’re in that situation is other people’s good intentions.
Dipti Solanki: But also that means that you can understand it, which means that you can help her understand herself.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes and so that has that has been it’s really ironic because if Steph hadn’t have died I wouldn’t be working with the child psychologist that I’m working with, family therapist, she’s really good and I’m for sure a thousand percent better parent.
Michaela McCarthy: So coming back to you, so you kind of, you’ve had some time. Yes. And then how long?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: 21 months nearly, yeah nearly 21 months.
Michaela McCarthy:
And so…
Dipti Solanki: It’s not long at all.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: No, it’s not. But I can see things getting better, definitely.
Michaela McCarthy: So the girls have found a kind of a different…
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Much more settled. I mean they are doing so well and I take so much comfort from that.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: And also like our dynamic as a family has obviously completely changed. So as a unit we’re much more settled and there’s a lot more support, I think, for each other. We really support each other.
Dipti Solanki: I really want to say this and I think it’s gonna be helpful for anyone listening as well. I see so much where people get swept away by their grief and they go where their grief takes them, which I get. But it very much sounds like you, like a lot of other people that I meet, have really stepped into your grief.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes.
Dipti Solanki: And, you know, it’s being allowed yourself to be with that grief for the girls and to, as Michaela said, to make sense of it.
And that makes a whole difference on that journey, doesn’t it?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I’ve always been very open with my grief. You know, I’ve sporadically cried whilst driving with the girls. You know, I still do that now.
Michaela McCarthy: That gives them, gives permission for the girls to be that way.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: That’s the thing, yeah. So I’ve been very open with them, not in the sense that they have to look after me or take care of me, and I make a point of saying that to them as well, but, and I make a point of saying to them and have done, you know, I’m expressing my grief and my sadness because I want you to feel okay with expressing yours, which I can safely say they’ve never had a problem doing, which is good.
Michaela McCarthy: Well that’s a good thing.
Dipti Solanki: That’s a credit to you.
Michaela McCarthy: But how have you moved back into your working life?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: I mean I haven’t done anything purposefully. I started off, I mean when Steph died, I found myself really, really creative and so I set up a new business, I set up like put all these different products together and toolkits and so on and I was very aware of what I was doing.
Michaela McCarthy: Throwing yourself into…
Nina Stephenson-Camps: This is what, this is my kind of, not escape but release, and it seemed really purposeful as well. So, you know.
Dipti Solanki: Your healthy coping mechanism.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: You might have needed that at the time.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Definitely, definitely. And then over the last three months, I’ve just allowed myself to kind of sit with things more because I was very much in doing mode and very much, and I’m quite, I give myself quite tall goals the whole time.
Problem, solution, problem, solution. So what I’ve been really working on the last couple of months is not doing that and really leaning into my fear and being like, OK actually when I do that , even though it’s very scary the whole world doesn’t fall apart. Now even my capacity to work has changed. You know, because I’m parenting the girls through grief, through my own grief, my energy levels are completely different to what they were. So, and there’s a level of acceptance that comes with that as well, you know, things have completely changed.
Michaela McCarthy: And I’m sure as time goes on, you will come to a place where whatever that place looks like, which will feel different, but you have to get to that place.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: And also I think in our society where it’s all about like the future and the five year plan and this and that and there’s something to be said about just allowing each step forward to then unfold because then you’re much more in the moment and you’re much more present and you’ll be able to to respond in that way rather than being, and this is certainly the case for me you know up until Steph died, very fixated or not fixated but that was the goal and I’m quite rigid with it.
Dipti Solanki: Well part of that is because you know you have to be in survival mode because you have no idea of how you’re gonna survive this. So to have a point in the future that you focus on is the only thing that keeps you going. But it sounds now that you and the girls are able to be much more present, which is another green shoot of healing for you.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah, it’s interesting because everyone talks about the first year being really hard, but I, that’s not my experience.
Dipti Solanki: Agree.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: The second year.
Michaela McCarthy: Because you were still kind of going to solution.
Dipti Solanki: Because you think something magically changes after the first year, but actually it’s like, oh, nothing does change and actually it might feel even worse.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: It’s more real, right? It’s just more, in some ways it’s harder. I mean it’s different.
Michaela McCarthy: Well, I imagine you have to go back and think, well, who am I in this life now?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes, yeah. Everything changes.
Michaela McCarthy: If other people were watching and listening, what would you say to them? Because you know, you had your life before, then you had the illness and then, but you know, your way of being?
Nina Stephenson-Camps: I would say to really get clear on who your support group is and in what capacity they can support because everyone has an ability to support at different points. That what’s really helped me is having a mindset of things happening for me not to me. That has really, really helped. And also get a therapist. I mean, I’ve been working with my therapist for a long time now and he has been fundamental, the work that I’ve done with him has been fundamental, not just in terms of moving through grief, but also, you know, I had a lot of difficulties with my father, you know, prior to Steph dying, and I’ve been able to work through that with him. And that’s really, you know, that’s really helped in that sense to get clarity on that and also the family therapist, the child psychologist I’ve been working with as well.
I’ve, you know, when I realised that Steph was going to die I made sure that I had the right team around me because I don’t have that family support.
Michaela McCarthy: Thank you for being honest and sharing. It’d be really good for the views to watch and listen.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: Because you know being in a position where you’re working and then all of a sudden bang this comes in. Yeah. And then you have to navigate your way.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy And still navigating your way.
Nina Stephenson-Camps: Yes. Yeah 100%. Thank you. Thank you.
Dipti Solanki: Thank you so much, Nina. It’s been a pleasure.
Outro: You’ve been listening to A Bunch of Therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy and Dipti Solanki. And if you enjoyed this episode don’t forget to review, like and subscribe to wherever you listen to your podcasts and do follow us on our socials.