Intro: Hello and welcome to A Bunch Of Therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy. And me, Dipti Solanki. We’ll be bringing you stories and insights from inside the therapy room. Who do we have as our guest this week, Michaela?
Michaela McCarthy: We have Hilton Da Silva, who is a qualified psychosexual relationship therapist. He has an interesting story, actually. I think what got him interested in therapy was that not just his own issues, but also he had mental health issues within his family.
Dipti Solanki: Okay.
Michaela McCarthy: And, I think when, you know, my take on it is when you have mental health issues or addiction issues or whatever issues within the family, it does affect the family.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah, sure.
Michaela McCarthy: And…
Dipti Solanki: I think a lot of people resonate with that. And did you say he’s a sex therapist?
Michaela McCarthy: He’s a psychosexual relationship therapist, so he works with individuals and couples. And he works with same-sex couples as well.
Dipti Solanki: Nice, looking forward to speaking with him.
Michaela McCarthy: Me too.
So welcome to our podcast, Hilton, A Bunch of Therapists.
Hilton Da Silva: Thank you so much.
Michaela McCarthy: Thank you for coming on. So tell us why you actually went into therapy or thought about therapy. When did it all start for you?
Hilton Da Silva: Well, reflecting back, I believe that I went through a personal struggle with my family and my brother, of course, at the time, didn’t know what was to come. We just noticed that he was struggling with his mental health. He would have outbursts of anger. And at the time, people spoke not much about other types of mental health issues. We heard about depression, anxiety, OCD, even, but what we later discovered is he had a diagnosis of bipolar disorder.
But to get to that diagnosis took maybe three years.
Michaela McCarthy: So what happened then with you and the family and your brother then during that time? Because you’re talking about bipolar, where people are really affected, family as well, that it’s a mental illness, you know, there’s more to it.
Hilton Da Silva: Yes, it affected immensely. There was a year that I asked my parents to move away from my home. So one year away from home, although it helped me, because how this would affect me, my brother coming back home late, 3 am fights that would end, he would end in my parents and in a police station, for example.
So it was all very tricky. And me wouldn’t know exactly, is that because he’s drinking a lot? Is that because he’s taking drugs? It wasn’t really nothing to do with that. But it was a lot of back and forth. Try one private psychiatrist and then go to hospital and then try another one.
I think what happened was at some point they gave a diagnosis that was schizophrenia at some point. And we were all impacted, thinking, oh, so maybe what’s going to happen is it’s never going to be back to normal life. Again, not knowing, because of course, you can be treated. Yeah, you can be treated.
Michaela McCarthy: Well, it’s the not knowing, isn’t it?
Hilton Da Silva: It’s the not knowing. So finally, when they found the diagnosis and when he started really accepting it, because there is also a phase, I would say maybe three years for the person with the diagnosis to say, yeah, I have to take these meds. And like diabetes, for instance, there is no other way. If I don’t do it, I will feel unwell.
Michaela McCarthy: Because what happens, they’ll stop, start, stop, start. I’m feeling better. I don’t need the medication. And then they have a relapse or an episode.
Hilton Da Silva: It happened a lot. So when we thought everything was fine, then again, an outburst of anger, breaking glasses, behaving in strange ways, ways that you don’t, if you’ve seen someone in psychosis, you don’t explain, you try to understand what’s the reason behind that behaviour, but you cannot. And because it’s your family, you think he’ll be fine, he’ll be okay, but actually never happens.
Michaela McCarthy: And did you notice when you were growing up, what’s the age difference between you and your brother?
Hilton Da Silva: Three years.
Michaela McCarthy: So he’s three years older. And so growing up, did you notice were there any signs, there was a something, what do you think?
Hilton Da Silva: So prior to that, he would misbehave. He would take the car when he was not allowed. So when he was 15, 16.
Michaela McCarthy: So he’s a bit of a rebel.
Hilton Da Silva: Yes, crossing boundaries all the time. And my relationship with him, always very argumentative, fights between us as teenagers. I still, you know, I do love my brother and we have a good relationship. We repaired in a way, but looking back, and I’ve said to everyone in my family, it’s difficult to accept that he was also not very easy-going with me. So we, I had a lot of struggles with our relationship.
Michaela McCarthy: So it’s almost like, you know, for you, mental health… mental health was in your life from an early age.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: Not really knowing or understanding.
Hilton Da Silva: Exactly.
Yes. From an early age. And then as you rightly asked, Michaela, because it’s important to look back. So when I was like nine, ten, we would have some situations really weird. For instance, when he had anger, he would break glasses, like windows.
Michaela McCarthy: So it sounds like rage.
Hilton Da Silva: This is an example, yeah, but there was no, I mean, I’m sure explaining, and if he goes back, he will understand, but there was no apparent reason for that anger.
And sometimes he would show up with me, with my parents, or himself doing some mischievous behaviours.
Michaela McCarthy: And so you moved away from the family home, okay, then what happens, you know, when your brother got diagnosed? How old were you?
Hilton Da Silva: When I moved away, well, there were two instances. So, I moved away when I was 16. I can’t remember exactly, but maybe 16, 17. And then I lived a whole year with my relatives, which was amazing.
I actually, at the time, didn’t want to go back.
Michaela McCarthy: OK.
Hilton Da Silva: So there was that, you know, I’m leaving because I had three cousins, all more or less the same age. I really enjoyed that. So it was positive. Then when I went back, I lived there for maybe one year or a couple of years and moved to Sao Paulo. So in a way that’s moving again, from my family, from my hometown was in a way escape, but at the same time, people would do that. Adolescents or teenagers were doing that for their uni. So there was that as well, like a little excuse, I’m doing it because I want to improve myself, I want to study, I want to be a better person, etc. So they fully understood that.
Michaela McCarthy: Can I just check, was it just you and your brother? Growing up? And so the reason why I ask, because, you know, your brother being a rebel, obviously actually having bipolar, I imagine he would have got an awful lot of attention because it was walking on eggshells, not showing, not knowing when he’s going to have an episode or, you know, or what was going on.
So I wonder what happened to you, even though you left home and went back, if he was all drama with him and how did you behave?
Hilton Da Silva: Well, I got less attention. So that was definitely true.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah.
Hilton Da Silva: However, I addressed that, which was good, good to have that adult conversation with my parents.
Dipti Solanki: How did it affect your behaviour, do you think? Did it affect your behaviour?
Hilton Da Silva: Let me think. In there, when I was with them, I I wouldn’t really share so much of my struggles.
Michaela McCarthy: Okay, so you would keep it to yourself because there’s so much going on with your brother.
Dipti Solanki: Was there any perfectionism that showed up, like trying to just…
Hilton Da Silva: Definitely, yeah. So I was a very good student. I wanted to show that, you know, I was doing really well. That’s a positive thing, I guess.
I was, so my, as a gay cisgender man living in Brazil, which is a kind of that’s quite famous for being homophobic, misogynistic, transphobic. I had to hide that for an important phase, which is teens. The teen years you are discovering, you are exploring.
And I thought, no, this cannot come now to the picture. I will hide as much as possible.
Michaela McCarthy: And with your family, did you hide too?
So with your sexuality, did you hide too with your family?
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah, I didn’t speak about it until my mum found out. How did she find out? So again, this is exactly how it could happen, isn’t it? So I’m here hiding and I’m not going to say because I don’t want to bring something that may cause despair or conflict. But then it didn’t work. So she found out, because she went to visit my flat in São Paulo and she was a bit nosy, I believe. So she checked my computer or she saw an email at the time, a conversation going on with an ex. And then we just had a really real conversation about that. But again, I think in a way, in São Paulo, I was ready. I was ready to have that conversation. So I had friends. I had good friends. I had a good network so I could count on them, I could stay over, you know, like, I really felt more empowered. Whereas…
Michaela McCarthy: But it was your life there, you created a life there that was away from your family.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah. So it’s part of my growth. And I know that as a queer counsellor, and as I know, a lot of LGBTQ go through the same, there is a fear that we all have. And I think this fear is because it’s historically happening, so generational.
Dipti Solanki: What is the fear?
Hilton Da Silva: The fear of being asked to leave your home because you’re not accepted.
Michaela McCarthy: So then living where you lived, and then when did you go into therapy yourself?
Hilton Da Silva: So, well, therapy, unfortunately, came quite late, actually. So therapy, the first time I did it was when I was 33, I think, so maybe 10 years ago.
And again, I think it came late because of money, because of not knowing exactly what therapy was, which nowadays, you know, I’m quite empowered and I want people to know that they can trust, that they can go to a counsellor that understand where they, well, understand their experiences as my lived experience.
Michaela McCarthy: So did you go into therapy in Brazil or did you wait until you come here?
Hilton Da Silva: In Brazil.
Michaela McCarthy: Okay.
Hilton Da Silva: The first time I was in Brazil, then twice in here.
Michaela McCarthy: So what made you come to London?
Hilton Da Silva: So London was a trajectory.
Michaela McCarthy: Okay.
Hilton Da Silva: To opening up my experiences in life, I believe. So when I was living in my hometown, I was studying a second language, I wanted to, I had the dream of going somewhere, you know, English speaking country, so the US, Australia, you know, but then finally I had a cousin that came to live here for a while. And so I was taking all that knowledge.
Michaela McCarthy: So you knew someone here.
Yes. And I thought, OK, if she did, I can do that as well. And did you speak English when you came?
Hilton Da Silva: Yes, but not amazingly, not amazingly. So it was learning how to speak. But I had a lot of understanding, I studied for a while. So I think that helps. you know, when you really like the language, you study, you like the culture, so you read, you see movies and all of that.
Michaela McCarthy: So you went into therapy here as well. Did you ever think that you were going to train as a therapist or was it, you know?
Hilton Da Silva: No, I never thought about it. I think it’s important to highlight that for me. So looking back, I never thought, oh, I’m going to go and see a gay counsellor. Can you imagine that? Now, you know, reflecting, of course, I didn’t even have that knowledge of how therapy is, what should I look for? I didn’t even know. Was it CBT? Was it person -centered?
Michaela McCarthy: When I went to therapy, I didn’t know that there was even different approaches. I didn’t even know, no one I knew was having therapy.
Dipti Solanki: Most people, it’s just difficult to get your foot through the door to go and see a therapist, right? A lot of people don’t even consider the approach. They’re like, therapy is therapy, so.
Michaela McCarthy: And it is very different. And you can find the right person. Did you find the right person eventually?
Hilton Da Silva: I did. But my first therapist, she said to me, you will have formed a belief from your lived experience, your family, your culture. And I have bad news. This is not going to change. You are not going to change. And I thought, OK, so why am I here for?
I’m not so sure if she had the intention to say something else afterwards, but then I fired her. So I’d say that my best therapist was when I was training. So and then, yeah, it was I could see their LGBTQ friendly with understanding. I think for communities that are marginalised or considered marginalised, for communities that are suffering every day sometimes with microaggressions, again homophobia, you know, it’s very important, maybe crucial to their healing.
Michaela McCarthy: When you were younger in Brazil and your brother was unwell, tension was on your brother, when did you know that you might be gay?
Hilton Da Silva: I believe I knew.. It’s not true that I knew from day one. A lot of people say that. I disagree. For me.
Michaela McCarthy: Because not everyone does. Some people do. They just know. They just said who I am and that’s it.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah, I always knew. So I think it was about maybe 12.
Michaela McCarthy: Okay.
Hilton Da Silva: But for me, so my personal experience was I, at some point, I did date girls and I was interested. So it wasn’t like I was faking it. And I think that’s when it gets more confusing. Because from my experiences, am I doing that because everyone is doing, dating opposite sex? Am I doing that because it’s what I see in movies, in TV series, in soap operas in Brazil, it’s very strong. But then I started to grow a higher interest and attraction, I’d say.
Michaela McCarthy: So coming back here, moving to Brazil, London, then how did your life grow in London?
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah, so coming to London, I met a lot of, a bigger, I would say, group of gay friends, LGBTQ of all sorts, but I felt more able to go to clubs, date, hold hands, you know, like show affection, which is something I wasn’t able to do it back in my country because I felt everyone would look at me.
And I’m saying that because I’ve seen other friends, gay friends saying the same, the freedom that they feel. And back in Brazil, they feel, again, not so comfortable. But I think it’s just in a way, I think it’s a bit cultural because I could do that the same in Brazil.
Michaela McCarthy: But I imagine there is a, quite now, I mean, things have changed.
Hilton Da Silva: Things have changed.
Michaela McCarthy: So there is a gay population in Brazil, even more in the cities.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah. And in Brazil, it’s very common, São Paulo at least, I’m from São Paulo, that you see them expressing their love. You see them together. More than here, you’ll find.
Dipti Solanki: Isn’t that interesting?
Hilton Da Silva: It’s very interesting. But again, it’s São Paulo. São Paulo is one of the biggest cities in the world. it doesn’t reflect the whole Brazil. I know that Brazil is the country with the highest number of transphobia crime. So this is very true. It’s very dangerous for trans people to live in Brazil.
I’m sure with the gay, lesbian communities, it’s also not easy. But I don’t have numbers. I would say it’s also high – the hate crime.
Michaela McCarthy: And so being here, living here, how’s life evolved for you? And when did you decide to train as a therapist?
Hilton Da Silva: So yeah, living here, as I said, it feels safer.
I feel more able to be myself. I actually like living here, because a lot of people ask, Isn’t the weather better?
Michaela McCarthy: Oh, we’ve had that conversation. Remember I said to you before, I said, and you said, I don’t like the heat. And I was like, and you know, you look at me and I love the heat. Yeah.
Hilton Da Silva: So there you go. I think not everyone is the same. And although I like my culture, I like Brazil, I also like it here. So that’s something I definitely, I don’t feel I’m missing anything. I, when I came here, I was, I worked a lot in retail. I worked for the transport as well for a while. but a lot of customer facing roles and a lot with the public. So in a way, I think that gives a lot of skills as well to be talking to people, to be relating. But it was only when I started working for TAC, I don’t know if I told Michaela…
Michaela McCarthy: TAC is The Awareness Centre.
Hilton Da Silva: So when I started working there, which was after the first lockdown, I believe, or around that time. I started helping clients or people interested in looking for therapy. I started talking to trainee therapists, newly qualified. And sometimes even therapists that have been in the field for over five years, they were all coming through the door and there was a lot of conversation.
It was when I thought, OK, I think maybe I can do something around this. And then I did the foundation course, which I loved.
And then from that on, it’s just I think if you notice you are liking it, it feels easy. Why not? So I did the whole three years
Michaela McCarthy: And here you are today. And then you married here.
Hilton Da Silva: Yes, I married here. My partner and I, we’ve been together for, oh, I can’t forget that…16 years.
Dipti Solanki: You’ll been in trouble.
Hilton Da Silva: Yes. He will be listening. 16 years. Very proudly.
Michaela McCarthy: And he’s a therapist.
Hilton Da Silva: He’s a therapist. But we speak about, of course, as therapists, reflecting a lot, giving insights, because if you are living with someone that’s a therapist, you expect that they learn and they use that in their relationships.
So I learned a lot with him. Yeah, I think it was nowadays really good because then as I work with couples, I work.
Dipti Solanki: Yeah. So tell us about your training and the kind of people that you work with in practice.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah. So I work with psychosexual issues or sex issues.
Dipti Solanki: And for our listeners and viewers, what does psychosexual therapy mean? What does it involve? What’s it all about?
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah. So psychosexual therapy is when one individual is feeling that they have low libido or they have erectile dysfunction, vaginismus for women.
Michaela McCarthy: Can you explain to the viewers what that is? Because I think people know erectile dysfunction, but vaginismus…
Hilton Da Silva: It’s more spoken because of Viagra and I wonder if because it’s men. But anyways, vaginismus when the genitalia, so women’s genitalia, the muscles are so rigid, so they feel a lot of pain when they have sex. But there are situations where women are struggling, having painful sex, and they think, oh, it’s okay, it’s just pain.
Dipti Solanki: It’s normal, part of it.
Hilton Da Silva: It’s so unfortunate. So, that’s the idea of psychosexual therapy. If there is one issue, either with your sexual organ, sex organ, if you have low libido, or if you have actually, you feel that you have a heightened drive, sometimes that becomes a problem. Again, it’s always, for sex therapy, it’s always when you, as an individual is feeling there is an issue.
There is something I’m not feeling quite right here. And then you look for help.
Michaela McCarthy: But also intimacy. And it’s not always the case where some people they can have sex with, they love someone and then they don’t. It’s the intimacy. They don’t understand that.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah.
Michaela McCarthy: You know, so that’s what you can work with as well.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah. Yeah. So like with couples, you can work with intimacy. You can work with communication
Michaela McCarthy: Which is key.
Hilton Da Silva: Communication is a big one. Sometimes is actually the cause of all problems. So if I’m in my second year and I’m noticing I cannot get my points across to my partner or I’m getting really triggered with some topics, maybe time to look for therapy because what I see is they come really later on after 10 years of struggling with the same issue. So you can imagine how difficult to untangle all of this resentment.
Dipti Solanki: That’s the thing, isn’t it? I think it can be really difficult when you’re in a relationship to even admit that there’s a problem. And so many people kind of look at the relationship as a whole and go, well, the rest of it’s fine. But also there’s an unsaid fear that this could blow everything up. And then what does that mean for my life? But then what is the benefit of going to therapy for people?
Hilton Da Silva: Yes. Well, I believe, again, for all, I think maybe all couples that I have seen, they improved. They improved communication.
Dipti Solanki: That’s affirming to hear for everyone listening.
Michaela McCarthy: But I just wonder why people wait until they feel that it’s the last thing that they can possibly do.
Dipti Solanki: But I think it’s just that.
Michaela McCarthy: Even for individuals as well, to actually go and, you know, take care of yourself.
Dipti Solanki: I think it’s scary to admit that there is something wrong.
Michaela McCarthy: But does that carry shame then? Do people feel ashamed that there’s something wrong with them? So they go and sort out their physical.
Dipti Solanki: I agree with you, but what’s your take on that Hilton?
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah, I think people, they feel ashamed. But maybe not only that, I’m thinking here, avoidance.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah, you’re right. They don’t want to change. When you have a couple, do you work with couples?
Dipti Solanki: No, but that’s something I definitely want to do.
Hilton Da Silva: So when you have a couple in front of you, the biggest thing I think is resistance. I mean, maybe all of us, we resist to changes, but with couples, you will be there.
Michaela McCarthy: I know with couples, you sort of, if you say to them, you know, give me five examples. what you dislike about each other. And then you say, you know, from the beginning of the relationship, give me five that you like. They know the dislikes.
Hilton Da Silva: Very quickly.
Michaela McCarthy: And then the likes are like, you’ve really got to bring them back to the beginning of when they actually liked each other.
And you think, gosh, you’re in this relationship and you haven’t liked each other for this amount of time. You know, it’s almost, and I think, you know, It’s all the resentment and everything that they’ve co -created in a relationship, that it’s really hard to find the goodness in the relationship.
Hilton Da Silva: I also had a, well, I’m not going to say if he, she or they, but I had someone not wanting to say the bad things in the relationship.
Michaela McCarthy: OK.
Dipti Solanki: Oh, interesting. What do you work with then?
Hilton Da Silva: Yes, exactly. Because that’s the avoidance, isn’t it? Avoiding conflict, avoiding finding really difficult to say, you know, I didn’t like this. I didn’t like that.
Michaela McCarthy: But that can happen in the workplace. It can happen with friendships, you know, conflict, people really avoid any form of conflict.
Dipti Solanki: But that’s often a fear of the possible consequences, you know, whether a relationship might blow up or someone might become angry or distant. And sometimes people would much rather stay with the painful kind of relationship dynamics now but
Michaela McCarthy: It’s what they know. So where are you at now in your profession?
You know, working with people, where would you say you’re at?
Hilton Da Silva: Yes, well, I’m in a good place. Yeah. So I have my private practice. My opinion is it’s good to do different things. I work for a charity that works with the LGBTQ communities. And they also work with the intersection of race, class, religion, which is very, very important these days.
It’s called NAS Project. They have been going on for 30 years. And once I started there, I would ask, because they work with South Asian, Black and Latino communities, and I work at The Awareness Centre as well with the NHS Wandsworth. And that’s short -term work?
Michaela McCarthy: That’s short -term work.
Hilton Da Silva: It’s very rewarding as well because we get to know, you know, what are the clients, what are they bringing within the NHS, which can be very diverse.
But what I would like to do is group work.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah, that’s really rewarding. I loved group work when I was doing it.
Hilton Da Silva: Not only, I don’t want to just be so niche, but LGBTQ and start these conversations because I think they are very helpful for a lot of men, gay men, well, trans men as well. So I still don’t know exactly how this will look like, but it’s something I really passionate about.
Michaela McCarthy: You know, I remember being in training and everything many moons ago, that I never, as a heterosexual woman, I never thought about my sexuality. But then I think when you work with the LGBT community, they do think about their sexuality.
I think it’s changed. you know, in the younger generation, you’ve got to keep up. Can you keep up with the younger generation now?
Hilton Da Silva: I can.
Michaela McCarthy: There is something new every week coming out and you think, oh my gosh, it’s like every letter of the rainbow.
Hilton Da Silva: Well, thank you for mentioning that. I was trained, GSRD it’s called, is an acronym for gender, sex, sexuality, and relationship diversity.
So you can see how that encompasses a lot of different groups of people. And now more recently, they add the letter E, which is erotic. So it’s like kink communities and different ways of role -playing, enjoying themselves, et cetera. So as a therapist trained in that, you’ll be open for different genders or ways of people identifying themselves.
Also, sometimes it’s about their looks. So the way that they appear to others. So a woman would prefer to be more masculine, or a man would prefer to be what in the past people would say androgynous. So sexuality, again, bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, but also thinking about other things, intersex, you know, like being open for the differences. And relationships, non-monogamy or consensual. Now they are talking a lot about consensual non -monogamy, which is great, I think. And polyamorous relationships.
Dipti Solanki: So I think our discussion kind of lends itself to understanding that relationships can look like so many different things. They can be monogamous, they can be polyamorous and everything else in between. But is there a common thread that you see people coming into the therapy room with? Something that is commonly experienced universally?
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah, I think, well, first of all, communication. And by that I mean emotional, your needs, wants. Like, what do I want from my partner? What do I need?
So, yeah, people struggle to actually know what they need.
Dipti Solanki: Right.
Hilton Da Silva: It’s very common.
Dipti Solanki: Before they even are able to express it.
Hilton Da Silva: Exactly. And that exploration will help them. Oh, that’s what I need. Actually, I’m not so ashamed of what I need.
I’m thinking about sex and couples, but also the communication of their everyday life, like, you know, to let them know where you are. Let them know who’s going to cook, who’s not going to cook, you know, what you’re going to do, like the day -to -day communication.
Dipti Solanki: That’s the foundational stuff, right?
Michaela McCarthy: I think also in relationships, it stems from our family systems as well, wherever, you know, we’ve brought up with two parents, one parent, whatever, existing, you know, extended family. It is about communication, but also I think, isn’t it about trust? Having trust, because whatever type of relationship you’re in, there still has to be trust.
Hilton Da Silva: Yeah. And building that, how to build trust.
Michaela McCarthy: So if you were to send a message out to our listeners and viewers, what would it be? What would you say to them?
Hilton Da Silva: Don’t be afraid of coming to therapy and couples therapy.
Dipti Solanki: What would you say to those who are in a healthy relationship about therapy?
Hilton Da Silva: I would say, don’t wait until you’re feeling, you know, you’re struggling. If you feel something is not right, go search for it. There are low cost options as well, I’m thinking, because some people cannot afford.
Dipti Solanki: Sure.
Hilton Da Silva: There are low cost options. If it’s a couple they can share the fee.
Michaela McCarthy: Yeah. Very practical of you Hilton.
Dipti Solanki: Exactly.
Hilton Da Silva: And also six sessions, you know, because the thing is, people feel afraid. Oh, I’m going to start a discount agreement in our contract, whatever is the way you call. And this will take ages. This will be three months, six months. But no, we could be six weeks.
Dipti Solanki: You could do a lot of good work in that time.
Hilton Da Silva: And then we contract after that if they want to carry on they can.
Michaela McCarthy: Or they can come back at a later stage. Well thank you for coming on.
Hilton Da Silva: Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you.
Outro: You’ve been listening to A Bunch of Therapists with me, Michaela McCarthy and Dipti Solanki. And if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to review, like and subscribe to wherever you listen to your podcasts and do follow us on our socials. Until next time, see you soon.